Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Loïc Hoguin-3
That's the thing about identity politics, it's not all offensive words
that are bad, it's only those that can be used to denigrate protected
groups (regardless of intent or how old or local the meaning is).

On 02/12/2018 04:18 PM, Roman Galeev wrote:

> Well, we have git already and nobody seems to be offended.
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:11 PM, Chris Waymire <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     The idea that a software library that happens to share name with a
>     racial slur that is over 180 years old and has not been part of
>     common social use for several decades would make people angry is
>     ridiculous. Especially when the word as meanings that pre-date the
>     slur. If that upsets you to the point where you are unable to get
>     past it then it is time to unplug your tv, your radio and your
>     internet and live a life of peaceful solitude.
>
>     On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 7:03 AM, Loïc Hoguin <[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>         This idea that white supremacists need a reason to call others
>         using racial slurs is ridiculous at best. At this rate you will
>         call me a Nazi by the next reply. Fingers crossed.
>
>         Again Valery does not apply this term to black people or make
>         any reference about them or the US History, so there's no intent
>         here. He's using the other meaning.
>
>         Soon you will argue that hunters are racists because they call
>         racoons "coons".
>
>
>         On 02/12/2018 03:53 PM, Josh Barney wrote:
>
>             Intent IS important and the intent of the people who applied
>             this term to black people was a very bad intent.
>
>             ?People are getting offended much too easily these days? ?
>             this argument has been plastered all over American news for
>             years, always coming from a privileged group claiming hurt.
>             This is the white supremesist position.
>
>
>             On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:34 AM Lo?c Hoguin
>             <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>                  This reminds me of people who were calling some coffee
>             brand racist not
>                  realizing that the Spanish or Portuguese translation
>             for "black"
>                  looks a
>                  lot like a racist slur.
>
>                  People are getting offended much too easily these days.
>             Intent is
>                  important and there's no intent to slur here.
>
>                  On 02/12/2018 03:15 PM, Josh Barney wrote:
>                   > One would presume that all the black persons who
>             have been called
>                  in an
>                   > effort to reduce them to rabid animals hunted for
>             sport by white men
>                   > with dogs would be aware. That?s the import thing
>             about racial
>                  slurs,
>                   > not that you are unhurt, but that someone else is hurt.
>                   >
>                   > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:04 AM Lo?c Hoguin
>             <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>                  wrote:
>                   >
>                   > More importantly, who is aware of them? I doubt too
>             many people
>                  outside
>                   > of North America know about it.
>                   >
>                   > And secondly, should you censor a word that's
>             otherwise perfectly
>                  fine
>                   > because of its use in slang? It'll get some radical
>             activists
>                  angry for
>                   > sure so it depends on whether you see this as a good
>             or a bad thing.
>                   > Nowadays that tends to be a good thing.
>                   >
>                   > Most people will not think twice about it.
>                   >
>                   > On 02/12/2018 02:17 PM, Fred Hebert wrote:
>                   > > Are you aware of the connotations coming with that
>             name?
>                   > >
>                   > > On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 4:05 PM, Valery Tikhonov
>                   > > <[hidden email]
>             <mailto:[hidden email]>
>             <mailto:[hidden email]
>             <mailto:[hidden email]>>>
>                   > wrote:
>                   > >
>                   > > Hi,
>                   > > I would like to introduce ?oon
>                  <https://github.com/comtihon/coon
>             <https://github.com/comtihon/coon>> -
>                   > > build and dependency management system and tool
>             for easy
>                  deployment
>                   > > Erlang packages.
>                   > > In short:
>                   > >
>                   > > * coon uses prebuilt packages from CoonHub
>                   > > <https://coon.justtech.blog>, what reduces build time
>                   > > * thanks to github integration it allows to
>             trigger new builds for
>                   > > Erlang packages when commiting new tag in repo
>                   > > * you can set installation steps to deploy and run
>             Erlang service
>                   > > from prebuilt package on system without otp/Erlang
>             installed
>                   > > with `coon install namespace/name`
>                   > >
>                   > > Documentation, articles and links:
>                   > >
>                   > > coon (client) - https://github.com/comtihon/coon
>             <https://github.com/comtihon/coon>
>                   > > <https://github.com/comtihon/coon
>             <https://github.com/comtihon/coon>> see Readme.md and doc folder
>                   > >
>                   > > coon_auto_builder (server) -
>                   > > https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder
>             <https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder>
>                   > > <https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder
>             <https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder>>
>                   > >
>                   > > how to create and build Erlang service from scratch
>                   > >
>             https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/
>             <https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/>
>                   > >
>                
>             <https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/
>             <https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/>>
>                   > >
>                   > > how to prepare Erlang service for deploy
>                   > >
>                   >
>             https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/
>             <https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/>
>                   > >
>                   >
>                
>             <https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/
>             <https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/>>
>
>                   > >
>                   > > example service which uses coon
>                   > > https://github.com/comtihon/example_service
>             <https://github.com/comtihon/example_service>
>                   > > <https://github.com/comtihon/example_service
>             <https://github.com/comtihon/example_service>>
>                   > >
>                   > > example library which uses coon
>                   > > https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang
>             <https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang>
>                   > > <https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang
>             <https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang>>
>                   > >
>                   > > Hope you find this tool useful :)
>                   > >
>                   > >
>                   > >
>                   > >
>                   > > _______________________________________________
>                   > > erlang-questions mailing list
>                   > > [hidden email]
>             <mailto:[hidden email]>
>             <mailto:[hidden email]
>             <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>                   > >
>             http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
>             <http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions>
>                   > >
>             <http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
>             <http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions>>
>                   > >
>                   > >
>                   > >
>                   > >
>                   > > _______________________________________________
>                   > > erlang-questions mailing list
>                   > > [hidden email]
>             <mailto:[hidden email]>
>                   > >
>             http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
>             <http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions>
>                   > >
>                   >
>                   > --
>                   > Lo?c Hoguin
>                   > https://ninenines.eu
>                   > _______________________________________________
>                   > erlang-questions mailing list
>                   > [hidden email]
>             <mailto:[hidden email]>
>                   > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
>             <http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions>
>                   >
>
>                  --     Lo?c Hoguin
>             https://ninenines.eu
>
>
>         --
>         Loïc Hoguin
>
>         https://ninenines.eu
>         _______________________________________________
>         erlang-questions mailing list
>         [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>         http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
>         <http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions>
>
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     erlang-questions mailing list
>     [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
>     <http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions>
>
>
>
>
> --
> With best regards,
>       Roman Galeev,
>       +420 702 817 968

--
Loïc Hoguin
https://ninenines.eu
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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Oliver Korpilla
In reply to this post by Chris Waymire
Common social use - by more recent generations maybe. People don't go away after one decade.

And that's already gracefully accepting the notion that people don't know the slur anymore. I'm not a native speaker and I'm aware of it being a slur.

It's living knowledge for many people. People now know. This thread with its rather small sample of people already proves this point - unless this is the most unusual sample on the planet? Do you think it is? And even if so, if several Erlang enthusiasts exist that know of it, isn't that the interesting example?

Everything else is just rhetoric smoke and mirrors.

Gesendet: Montag, 12. Februar 2018 um 16:11 Uhr
Von: "Chris Waymire" <[hidden email]>
An: "Loïc Hoguin" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Valery Tikhonov" <[hidden email]>, Erlang <[hidden email]>
Betreff: Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

The idea that a software library that happens to share name with a racial slur that is over 180 years old and has not been part of common social use for several decades would make people angry is ridiculous. Especially when the word as meanings that pre-date the slur. If that upsets you to the point where you are unable to get past it then it is time to unplug your tv, your radio and your internet and live a life of peaceful solitude.
 
On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 7:03 AM, Loïc Hoguin <[hidden email][mailto:[hidden email]]> wrote:This idea that white supremacists need a reason to call others using racial slurs is ridiculous at best. At this rate you will call me a Nazi by the next reply. Fingers crossed.

Again Valery does not apply this term to black people or make any reference about them or the US History, so there's no intent here. He's using the other meaning.

Soon you will argue that hunters are racists because they call racoons "coons".

On 02/12/2018 03:53 PM, Josh Barney wrote:Intent IS important and the intent of the people who applied this term to black people was a very bad intent.

?People are getting offended much too easily these days? ? this argument has been plastered all over American news for years, always coming from a privileged group claiming hurt. This is the white supremesist position.


On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:34 AM Lo?c Hoguin <[hidden email][mailto:[hidden email]]> wrote:

    This reminds me of people who were calling some coffee brand racist not
    realizing that the Spanish or Portuguese translation for "black"
    looks a
    lot like a racist slur.

    People are getting offended much too easily these days. Intent is
    important and there's no intent to slur here.

    On 02/12/2018 03:15 PM, Josh Barney wrote:
     > One would presume that all the black persons who have been called
    in an
     > effort to reduce them to rabid animals hunted for sport by white men
     > with dogs would be aware. That?s the import thing about racial
    slurs,
     > not that you are unhurt, but that someone else is hurt.
     >
     > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:04 AM Lo?c Hoguin <[hidden email][mailto:[hidden email]]>
    wrote:
     >
     > More importantly, who is aware of them? I doubt too many people
    outside
     > of North America know about it.
     >
     > And secondly, should you censor a word that's otherwise perfectly
    fine
     > because of its use in slang? It'll get some radical activists
    angry for
     > sure so it depends on whether you see this as a good or a bad thing.
     > Nowadays that tends to be a good thing.
     >
     > Most people will not think twice about it.
     >
     > On 02/12/2018 02:17 PM, Fred Hebert wrote:
     > > Are you aware of the connotations coming with that name?
     > >
     > > On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 4:05 PM, Valery Tikhonov
     > > <[hidden email][mailto:[hidden email]] <mailto:[hidden email][mailto:[hidden email]]>>
     > wrote:
     > >
     > > Hi,
     > > I would like to introduce ?oon
    <https://github.com/comtihon/coon[https://github.com/comtihon/coon]> -
     > > build and dependency management system and tool for easy
    deployment
     > > Erlang packages.
     > > In short:
     > >
     > > * coon uses prebuilt packages from CoonHub
     > > <https://coon.justtech.blog[https://coon.justtech.blog]>, what reduces build time
     > > * thanks to github integration it allows to trigger new builds for
     > > Erlang packages when commiting new tag in repo
     > > * you can set installation steps to deploy and run Erlang service
     > > from prebuilt package on system without otp/Erlang installed
     > > with `coon install namespace/name`
     > >
     > > Documentation, articles and links:
     > >
     > > coon (client) - https://github.com/comtihon/coon[https://github.com/comtihon/coon]
     > > <https://github.com/comtihon/coon[https://github.com/comtihon/coon]> see Readme.md and doc folder
     > >
     > > coon_auto_builder (server) -
     > > https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder[https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder]
     > > <https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder[https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder]>
     > >
     > > how to create and build Erlang service from scratch
     > > https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/[https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/]
     > >
    <https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/[https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/]>
     > >
     > > how to prepare Erlang service for deploy
     > >
     >
    https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/[https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/]
     > >
     >
    <https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/[https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/]>

     > >
     > > example service which uses coon
     > > https://github.com/comtihon/example_service[https://github.com/comtihon/example_service]
     > > <https://github.com/comtihon/example_service[https://github.com/comtihon/example_service]>
     > >
     > > example library which uses coon
     > > https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang[https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang]
     > > <https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang[https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang]>
     > >
     > > Hope you find this tool useful :)
     > >
     > >
     > >
     > >
     > > _______________________________________________
     > > erlang-questions mailing list
     > > [hidden email][mailto:[hidden email]] <mailto:[hidden email][mailto:[hidden email]]>
     > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions[http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions]
     > > <http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions[http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions]>
     > >
     > >
     > >
     > >
     > > _______________________________________________
     > > erlang-questions mailing list
     > > [hidden email][mailto:[hidden email]]
     > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions[http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions]
     > >
     >
     > --
     > Lo?c Hoguin
     > https://ninenines.eu[https://ninenines.eu]
     > _______________________________________________
     > erlang-questions mailing list
     > [hidden email][mailto:[hidden email]]
     > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions[http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions]
     >

    --     Lo?c Hoguin
    https://ninenines.eu[https://ninenines.eu]
  --
Loïc Hoguin

https://ninenines.eu[https://ninenines.eu]
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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Daniel Goertzen-3
In reply to this post by Fred Hebert-2
I could easily see this being a viral front page reddit kind of thing.  You don't want that kind of attention.  I encourage you to be proactive about this before The Offended come out in force.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:17 AM Fred Hebert <[hidden email]> wrote:
Intent does not matter. Intent is not a thing that makes people go "oh okay I guess it's a good idea then". Intent does not prevent people to run away with a thing and taking the control of the message away from you. There are going to be angry people, there are going to be public fallouts and callouts, and it will be a blocker to the adoption of the project.

It does not matter that you don't think it's insulting. It matters that others do and that they are guaranteed to do a thing about it.

This e-mail thread is already making the rounds on a few slack communities I'm on and the outlook is at worst that the Erlang community is full of racists, or at best that it's full of people with terrible judgement.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:11 AM, Chris Waymire <[hidden email]> wrote:
The idea that a software library that happens to share name with a racial slur that is over 180 years old and has not been part of common social use for several decades would make people angry is ridiculous. Especially when the word as meanings that pre-date the slur. If that upsets you to the point where you are unable to get past it then it is time to unplug your tv, your radio and your internet and live a life of peaceful solitude.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 7:03 AM, Loïc Hoguin <[hidden email]> wrote:
This idea that white supremacists need a reason to call others using racial slurs is ridiculous at best. At this rate you will call me a Nazi by the next reply. Fingers crossed.

Again Valery does not apply this term to black people or make any reference about them or the US History, so there's no intent here. He's using the other meaning.

Soon you will argue that hunters are racists because they call racoons "coons".


On 02/12/2018 03:53 PM, Josh Barney wrote:
Intent IS important and the intent of the people who applied this term to black people was a very bad intent.

?People are getting offended much too easily these days? ? this argument has been plastered all over American news for years, always coming from a privileged group claiming hurt. This is the white supremesist position.


On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:34 AM Lo?c Hoguin <[hidden email]> wrote:

    This reminds me of people who were calling some coffee brand racist not
    realizing that the Spanish or Portuguese translation for "black"
    looks a
    lot like a racist slur.

    People are getting offended much too easily these days. Intent is
    important and there's no intent to slur here.

    On 02/12/2018 03:15 PM, Josh Barney wrote:
     > One would presume that all the black persons who have been called
    in an
     > effort to reduce them to rabid animals hunted for sport by white men
     > with dogs would be aware. That?s the import thing about racial
    slurs,
     > not that you are unhurt, but that someone else is hurt.
     >
     > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:04 AM Lo?c Hoguin <[hidden email]>
    wrote:
     >
     > More importantly, who is aware of them? I doubt too many people
    outside
     > of North America know about it.
     >
     > And secondly, should you censor a word that's otherwise perfectly
    fine
     > because of its use in slang? It'll get some radical activists
    angry for
     > sure so it depends on whether you see this as a good or a bad thing.
     > Nowadays that tends to be a good thing.
     >
     > Most people will not think twice about it.
     >
     > On 02/12/2018 02:17 PM, Fred Hebert wrote:
     > > Are you aware of the connotations coming with that name?
     > >
     > > On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 4:05 PM, Valery Tikhonov
     > > <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
     > wrote:
     > >
     > > Hi,
     > > I would like to introduce ?oon
    <https://github.com/comtihon/coon> -
     > > build and dependency management system and tool for easy
    deployment
     > > Erlang packages.
     > > In short:
     > >
     > > * coon uses prebuilt packages from CoonHub
     > > <https://coon.justtech.blog>, what reduces build time
     > > * thanks to github integration it allows to trigger new builds for
     > > Erlang packages when commiting new tag in repo
     > > * you can set installation steps to deploy and run Erlang service
     > > from prebuilt package on system without otp/Erlang installed
     > > with `coon install namespace/name`
     > >
     > > Documentation, articles and links:
     > >
     > > coon (client) - https://github.com/comtihon/coon
     > > <https://github.com/comtihon/coon> see Readme.md and doc folder
     > >
     > > coon_auto_builder (server) -
     > > https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder
     > > <https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder>
     > >
     > > how to create and build Erlang service from scratch
     > > https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/
     > >
    <https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/>
     > >
     > > how to prepare Erlang service for deploy
     > >
     >
    https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/
     > >
     >
    <https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/>

     > >
     > > example service which uses coon
     > > https://github.com/comtihon/example_service
     > > <https://github.com/comtihon/example_service>
     > >
     > > example library which uses coon
     > > https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang
     > > <https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang>
     > >
     > > Hope you find this tool useful :)
     > >
     > >
     > >
     > >
     > > _______________________________________________
     > > erlang-questions mailing list
     > > [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
     > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
     > > <http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions>
     > >
     > >
     > >
     > >
     > > _______________________________________________
     > > erlang-questions mailing list
     > > [hidden email]
     > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
     > >
     >
     > --
     > Lo?c Hoguin
     > https://ninenines.eu
     > _______________________________________________
     > erlang-questions mailing list
     > [hidden email]
     > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
     >

    --     Lo?c Hoguin
    https://ninenines.eu


--
Loïc Hoguin

https://ninenines.eu
_______________________________________________
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions


_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions


_______________________________________________
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions

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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Roman Galeev
In reply to this post by Loïc Hoguin-3
> denigrate protected groups

I'm quite sure you can use any given word for that.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:22 PM, Loïc Hoguin <[hidden email]> wrote:
That's the thing about identity politics, it's not all offensive words that are bad, it's only those that can be used to denigrate protected groups (regardless of intent or how old or local the meaning is).

On 02/12/2018 04:18 PM, Roman Galeev wrote:
Well, we have git already and nobody seems to be offended.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:11 PM, Chris Waymire <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

    The idea that a software library that happens to share name with a
    racial slur that is over 180 years old and has not been part of
    common social use for several decades would make people angry is
    ridiculous. Especially when the word as meanings that pre-date the
    slur. If that upsets you to the point where you are unable to get
    past it then it is time to unplug your tv, your radio and your
    internet and live a life of peaceful solitude.

    On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 7:03 AM, Loïc Hoguin <[hidden email]
    <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

        This idea that white supremacists need a reason to call others
        using racial slurs is ridiculous at best. At this rate you will
        call me a Nazi by the next reply. Fingers crossed.

        Again Valery does not apply this term to black people or make
        any reference about them or the US History, so there's no intent
        here. He's using the other meaning.

        Soon you will argue that hunters are racists because they call
        racoons "coons".


        On 02/12/2018 03:53 PM, Josh Barney wrote:

            Intent IS important and the intent of the people who applied
            this term to black people was a very bad intent.

            ?People are getting offended much too easily these days? ?
            this argument has been plastered all over American news for
            years, always coming from a privileged group claiming hurt.
            This is the white supremesist position.


            On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:34 AM Lo?c Hoguin
            <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

                 This reminds me of people who were calling some coffee
            brand racist not
                 realizing that the Spanish or Portuguese translation
            for "black"
                 looks a
                 lot like a racist slur.

                 People are getting offended much too easily these days.
            Intent is
                 important and there's no intent to slur here.

                 On 02/12/2018 03:15 PM, Josh Barney wrote:
                  > One would presume that all the black persons who
            have been called
                 in an
                  > effort to reduce them to rabid animals hunted for
            sport by white men
                  > with dogs would be aware. That?s the import thing
            about racial
                 slurs,
                  > not that you are unhurt, but that someone else is hurt.
                  >
                  > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:04 AM Lo?c Hoguin
            <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
                 wrote:
                  >
                  > More importantly, who is aware of them? I doubt too
            many people
                 outside
                  > of North America know about it.
                  >
                  > And secondly, should you censor a word that's
            otherwise perfectly
                 fine
                  > because of its use in slang? It'll get some radical
            activists
                 angry for
                  > sure so it depends on whether you see this as a good
            or a bad thing.
                  > Nowadays that tends to be a good thing.
                  >
                  > Most people will not think twice about it.
                  >
                  > On 02/12/2018 02:17 PM, Fred Hebert wrote:
                  > > Are you aware of the connotations coming with that
            name?
                  > >
                  > > On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 4:05 PM, Valery Tikhonov
                  > > <[hidden email]
            <mailto:[hidden email]>
            <mailto:[hidden email]

            <mailto:[hidden email]>>>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hi,
                  > > I would like to introduce ?oon
                 <https://github.com/comtihon/coon
            <https://github.com/comtihon/coon>> -
                  > > build and dependency management system and tool
            for easy
                 deployment
                  > > Erlang packages.
                  > > In short:
                  > >
                  > > * coon uses prebuilt packages from CoonHub
                  > > <https://coon.justtech.blog>, what reduces build time
                  > > * thanks to github integration it allows to
            trigger new builds for
                  > > Erlang packages when commiting new tag in repo
                  > > * you can set installation steps to deploy and run
            Erlang service
                  > > from prebuilt package on system without otp/Erlang
            installed
                  > > with `coon install namespace/name`
                  > >
                  > > Documentation, articles and links:
                  > >
                  > > coon (client) - https://github.com/comtihon/coon
            <https://github.com/comtihon/coon>
                  > > <https://github.com/comtihon/coon
            <https://github.com/comtihon/coon>> see Readme.md and doc folder
                  > >
                  > > coon_auto_builder (server) -
                  > > https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder
            <https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder>
                  > > <https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder
            <https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder>>
                  > >
                  > > how to create and build Erlang service from scratch
                  > >
            https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/
            <https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/>
                  > >
                            <https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/
            <https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/>>
                  > >
                  > > how to prepare Erlang service for deploy
                  > >
                  >
            https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/
            <https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/>
                  > >
                  >
                            <https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/
            <https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/>>

                  > >
                  > > example service which uses coon
                  > > https://github.com/comtihon/example_service
            <https://github.com/comtihon/example_service>
                  > > <https://github.com/comtihon/example_service
            <https://github.com/comtihon/example_service>>
                  > >
                  > > example library which uses coon
                  > > https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang
            <https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang>
                  > > <https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang
            <https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang>>
                  > >
                  > > Hope you find this tool useful :)
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > _______________________________________________
                  > > erlang-questions mailing list
                  > > [hidden email]
            <mailto:[hidden email]>
            <mailto:[hidden email]
            <mailto:[hidden email]>>
                  > >
            http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
            <http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions>
                  > >
            <http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
            <http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions>>
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > _______________________________________________
                  > > erlang-questions mailing list
                  > > [hidden email]
            <mailto:[hidden email]>
                  > >
            http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
            <http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions>
                  > >
                  >
                  > --
                  > Lo?c Hoguin
                  > https://ninenines.eu
                  > _______________________________________________
                  > erlang-questions mailing list
                  > [hidden email]
            <mailto:[hidden email]>
                  > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
            <http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions>
                  >

                 --     Lo?c Hoguin
            https://ninenines.eu


        --         Loïc Hoguin

        https://ninenines.eu
        _______________________________________________
        erlang-questions mailing list
        [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
        http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
        <http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions>



    _______________________________________________
    erlang-questions mailing list
    [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
    http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
    <http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions>




--
With best regards,
      Roman Galeev,
      <a href="tel:%2B420%C2%A0702%20817%20968" value="+420702817968" target="_blank">+420 702 817 968

--
Loïc Hoguin
https://ninenines.eu



--
With best regards,
     Roman Galeev,
     +420 702 817 968

_______________________________________________
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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Roman Galeev
Also, is there someone on this list who is really offended by the repo named coon?

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:25 PM, Roman Galeev <[hidden email]> wrote:
> denigrate protected groups

I'm quite sure you can use any given word for that.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:22 PM, Loïc Hoguin <[hidden email]> wrote:
That's the thing about identity politics, it's not all offensive words that are bad, it's only those that can be used to denigrate protected groups (regardless of intent or how old or local the meaning is).

On 02/12/2018 04:18 PM, Roman Galeev wrote:
Well, we have git already and nobody seems to be offended.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:11 PM, Chris Waymire <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

    The idea that a software library that happens to share name with a
    racial slur that is over 180 years old and has not been part of
    common social use for several decades would make people angry is
    ridiculous. Especially when the word as meanings that pre-date the
    slur. If that upsets you to the point where you are unable to get
    past it then it is time to unplug your tv, your radio and your
    internet and live a life of peaceful solitude.

    On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 7:03 AM, Loïc Hoguin <[hidden email]
    <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

        This idea that white supremacists need a reason to call others
        using racial slurs is ridiculous at best. At this rate you will
        call me a Nazi by the next reply. Fingers crossed.

        Again Valery does not apply this term to black people or make
        any reference about them or the US History, so there's no intent
        here. He's using the other meaning.

        Soon you will argue that hunters are racists because they call
        racoons "coons".


        On 02/12/2018 03:53 PM, Josh Barney wrote:

            Intent IS important and the intent of the people who applied
            this term to black people was a very bad intent.

            ?People are getting offended much too easily these days? ?
            this argument has been plastered all over American news for
            years, always coming from a privileged group claiming hurt.
            This is the white supremesist position.


            On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:34 AM Lo?c Hoguin
            <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

                 This reminds me of people who were calling some coffee
            brand racist not
                 realizing that the Spanish or Portuguese translation
            for "black"
                 looks a
                 lot like a racist slur.

                 People are getting offended much too easily these days.
            Intent is
                 important and there's no intent to slur here.

                 On 02/12/2018 03:15 PM, Josh Barney wrote:
                  > One would presume that all the black persons who
            have been called
                 in an
                  > effort to reduce them to rabid animals hunted for
            sport by white men
                  > with dogs would be aware. That?s the import thing
            about racial
                 slurs,
                  > not that you are unhurt, but that someone else is hurt.
                  >
                  > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:04 AM Lo?c Hoguin
            <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
                 wrote:
                  >
                  > More importantly, who is aware of them? I doubt too
            many people
                 outside
                  > of North America know about it.
                  >
                  > And secondly, should you censor a word that's
            otherwise perfectly
                 fine
                  > because of its use in slang? It'll get some radical
            activists
                 angry for
                  > sure so it depends on whether you see this as a good
            or a bad thing.
                  > Nowadays that tends to be a good thing.
                  >
                  > Most people will not think twice about it.
                  >
                  > On 02/12/2018 02:17 PM, Fred Hebert wrote:
                  > > Are you aware of the connotations coming with that
            name?
                  > >
                  > > On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 4:05 PM, Valery Tikhonov
                  > > <[hidden email]
            <mailto:[hidden email]>
            <mailto:[hidden email]

            <mailto:[hidden email]>>>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hi,
                  > > I would like to introduce ?oon
                 <https://github.com/comtihon/coon
            <https://github.com/comtihon/coon>> -
                  > > build and dependency management system and tool
            for easy
                 deployment
                  > > Erlang packages.
                  > > In short:
                  > >
                  > > * coon uses prebuilt packages from CoonHub
                  > > <https://coon.justtech.blog>, what reduces build time
                  > > * thanks to github integration it allows to
            trigger new builds for
                  > > Erlang packages when commiting new tag in repo
                  > > * you can set installation steps to deploy and run
            Erlang service
                  > > from prebuilt package on system without otp/Erlang
            installed
                  > > with `coon install namespace/name`
                  > >
                  > > Documentation, articles and links:
                  > >
                  > > coon (client) - https://github.com/comtihon/coon
            <https://github.com/comtihon/coon>
                  > > <https://github.com/comtihon/coon
            <https://github.com/comtihon/coon>> see Readme.md and doc folder
                  > >
                  > > coon_auto_builder (server) -
                  > > https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder
            <https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder>
                  > > <https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder
            <https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder>>
                  > >
                  > > how to create and build Erlang service from scratch
                  > >
            https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/
            <https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/>
                  > >
                            <https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/
            <https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/>>
                  > >
                  > > how to prepare Erlang service for deploy
                  > >
                  >
            https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/
            <https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/>
                  > >
                  >
                            <https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/
            <https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/>>

                  > >
                  > > example service which uses coon
                  > > https://github.com/comtihon/example_service
            <https://github.com/comtihon/example_service>
                  > > <https://github.com/comtihon/example_service
            <https://github.com/comtihon/example_service>>
                  > >
                  > > example library which uses coon
                  > > https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang
            <https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang>
                  > > <https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang
            <https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang>>
                  > >
                  > > Hope you find this tool useful :)
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > _______________________________________________
                  > > erlang-questions mailing list
                  > > [hidden email]
            <mailto:[hidden email]>
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                  > >
            <http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
            <http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions>>
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > _______________________________________________
                  > > erlang-questions mailing list
                  > > [hidden email]
            <mailto:[hidden email]>
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            <http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions>
                  > >
                  >
                  > --
                  > Lo?c Hoguin
                  > https://ninenines.eu
                  > _______________________________________________
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            <http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions>
                  >

                 --     Lo?c Hoguin
            https://ninenines.eu


        --         Loïc Hoguin

        https://ninenines.eu
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     <a href="tel:+420%20702%20817%20968" value="+420702817968" target="_blank">+420 702 817 968



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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Loïc Hoguin-3
In reply to this post by Fred Hebert-2
I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that naming is important and
that some names are better than others. All names have good and bad
connotations. It's up to the author to decide whether he's OK with it or
not.

Ironic that you mention code of conducts because, to take the one from
Erlang Factories in particular[1], it does not write anything against
this, at least in plain English. It only does when you accept a new
meaning for harassment which is much broader than the original. That
meaning is also ideologically driven so in my opinion you would do the
author a favor by pointing out the terrible CoC the conference has.

[1] http://confcodeofconduct.com/

Cheers,

On 02/12/2018 03:57 PM, Fred Hebert wrote:

> You can very well name your software 'piss' or 'shitpile' for all I
> care. Calling it a term that could be racist is certainly another thing
> entirely and comparing piss to a racist term is certainly a false
> equivalency.
>
> Anyone is of course free to name their software whatever they want.
> Picking a racist name is however never going to be consequences-free as
> this e-mail thread first shows on the first day of release, and adoption
> figures may also reflect it. It also impacts the broader Erlang
> community to be sure. I can't imagine someone doing a keynote in North
> America with that package manager name and somehow expecting things to
> be fine, for example. If I were on a program committee, I'd vote against
> it /and you could do nothing about that no matter if you'd think I'd be
> offended for no reason or not/. I could just choose to call the code of
> conduct in question and be done with my explanation.
>
> If the author of the /coon/ package manager wants to keep going, I would
> probably strongly suggest they put as many god damn image of raccoons as
> they can on the website because there is certainly no cues as to what
> the origin of the name is right here. If they care about the naming less
> than the shitstorm and perception that will come back to them from it,
> then maybe renaming is a good idea. For christ's sake, try /rcoon/ if
> you really /have to name it after a raccoon/ or something like that.
>
> I would personally never want to introduce a tool with this name in a
> workplace, tutorial, talk, book, or class. It's just not a good idea on
> any level.
>
> Nobody is forcing anyone to rename their packages here, but any
> marketing person worth a dime would tell you that it does not matter
> that anyone thinks others should be offended less. They'll react how
> they'll react and you'll have to deal with the real world fallout coming
> out of it.
>
> It's not presented well, it's bad optics, it's insensitive, and it's a
> bad idea.
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:34 AM, <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
> wrote:
>
>     On 2018年2月13日火曜日 1時20分50秒 JST Dmitry Belyaev wrote:
>     > By the way, do you know what a well known English word and a library Mocha mean in Russian?.. However it doesn't mean people should stop using the word.
>
>     This.
>
>     Emphatically this.
>
>     I have a longer response, but I'm going to cool down a bit before I
>     post it.
>
>     Seriously, this crap has gone far enough.
>
>     -Craig
>     _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
>
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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

zxq9-2
In reply to this post by Fred Hebert-2
On 2018年2月12日月曜日 10時16分51秒 JST Fred Hebert wrote:
> Intent does not matter.

No.

Fred, I have enormous respect for you and have gone several rounds with you on several subjects, each time having learned something for my own part. On technical subjects, anyway.

But... INTENT

You are demonstraby wrong already. Just stop. You will not win against the weight of history.

This is becoming some SJW ridiculousness already, not because you care about that but because of the ambient temperature. I know SJW flippancy is not your intent, but that is the only place this winds up going these days. That is not a small failure -- it quickly becomes a systemic one, not just in a concurrent software system of ephemeral importance, but a concrete socio-economic one of critical importance that pays for all the other parties we enjoy.

Riddle me this:
If we cannot undersand enough about the software systems that WE WRITE OURSELVES that we need the "let it crash" mentality, how is it that we somehow understand to a manifest degree the economic and social value systems (which are profoundly more complex than our petty software systems) that we can dictate value within them? By what restart mechanism is this all brought back to a "reasonble default"?

I am sincerely desirous of an answer here, because I have a profound respect for your intellect but cannot imagine that you have properly considered the alternatives or where this path of discourse winds up eventualy going.

-Craig
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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

zxq9-2
In reply to this post by Daniel Goertzen-3
On 2018年2月12日月曜日 15時24分33秒 JST Daniel Goertzen wrote:
> I could easily see this being a viral front page reddit kind of thing.  You
> don't want that kind of attention.  I encourage you to be proactive about
> this before The Offended come out in force.

I would argue that in the context of Erlang, a language with perhaps a score or two genuine experts available for contract work, that actually, YES, you do want the press.

But that isn't at all why I am against the contention of naming conventions based on a profoundly dated North American perspective.

-Craig
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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Roman Galeev
In reply to this post by Daniel Goertzen-3
> I could easily see this being a viral front page reddit kind of thing.

That actually would be the best thing could ever happen to a niche public project.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:24 PM, Daniel Goertzen <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I could easily see this being a viral front page reddit kind of thing.  You don't want that kind of attention.  I encourage you to be proactive about this before The Offended come out in force.
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:17 AM Fred Hebert <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Intent does not matter. Intent is not a thing that makes people go "oh okay I guess it's a good idea then". Intent does not prevent people to run away with a thing and taking the control of the message away from you. There are going to be angry people, there are going to be public fallouts and callouts, and it will be a blocker to the adoption of the project.
>>
>> It does not matter that you don't think it's insulting. It matters that others do and that they are guaranteed to do a thing about it.
>>
>> This e-mail thread is already making the rounds on a few slack communities I'm on and the outlook is at worst that the Erlang community is full of racists, or at best that it's full of people with terrible judgement.
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:11 AM, Chris Waymire <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> The idea that a software library that happens to share name with a racial slur that is over 180 years old and has not been part of common social use for several decades would make people angry is ridiculous. Especially when the word as meanings that pre-date the slur. If that upsets you to the point where you are unable to get past it then it is time to unplug your tv, your radio and your internet and live a life of peaceful solitude.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 7:03 AM, Loïc Hoguin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> This idea that white supremacists need a reason to call others using racial slurs is ridiculous at best. At this rate you will call me a Nazi by the next reply. Fingers crossed.
>>>>
>>>> Again Valery does not apply this term to black people or make any reference about them or the US History, so there's no intent here. He's using the other meaning.
>>>>
>>>> Soon you will argue that hunters are racists because they call racoons "coons".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 02/12/2018 03:53 PM, Josh Barney wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Intent IS important and the intent of the people who applied this term to black people was a very bad intent.
>>>>>
>>>>> ?People are getting offended much too easily these days? ? this argument has been plastered all over American news for years, always coming from a privileged group claiming hurt. This is the white supremesist position.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:34 AM Lo?c Hoguin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>     This reminds me of people who were calling some coffee brand racist not
>>>>>     realizing that the Spanish or Portuguese translation for "black"
>>>>>     looks a
>>>>>     lot like a racist slur.
>>>>>
>>>>>     People are getting offended much too easily these days. Intent is
>>>>>     important and there's no intent to slur here.
>>>>>
>>>>>     On 02/12/2018 03:15 PM, Josh Barney wrote:
>>>>>      > One would presume that all the black persons who have been called
>>>>>     in an
>>>>>      > effort to reduce them to rabid animals hunted for sport by white men
>>>>>      > with dogs would be aware. That?s the import thing about racial
>>>>>     slurs,
>>>>>      > not that you are unhurt, but that someone else is hurt.
>>>>>      >
>>>>>      > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:04 AM Lo?c Hoguin <[hidden email]>
>>>>>     wrote:
>>>>>      >
>>>>>      > More importantly, who is aware of them? I doubt too many people
>>>>>     outside
>>>>>      > of North America know about it.
>>>>>      >
>>>>>      > And secondly, should you censor a word that's otherwise perfectly
>>>>>     fine
>>>>>      > because of its use in slang? It'll get some radical activists
>>>>>     angry for
>>>>>      > sure so it depends on whether you see this as a good or a bad thing.
>>>>>      > Nowadays that tends to be a good thing.
>>>>>      >
>>>>>      > Most people will not think twice about it.
>>>>>      >
>>>>>      > On 02/12/2018 02:17 PM, Fred Hebert wrote:
>>>>>      > > Are you aware of the connotations coming with that name?
>>>>>      > >
>>>>>      > > On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 4:05 PM, Valery Tikhonov
>>>>>      > > <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>>>>      > wrote:
>>>>>      > >
>>>>>      > > Hi,
>>>>>      > > I would like to introduce ?oon
>>>>>     <https://github.com/comtihon/coon>; -
>>>>>      > > build and dependency management system and tool for easy
>>>>>     deployment
>>>>>      > > Erlang packages.
>>>>>      > > In short:
>>>>>      > >
>>>>>      > > * coon uses prebuilt packages from CoonHub
>>>>>      > > <https://coon.justtech.blog>;, what reduces build time
>>>>>      > > * thanks to github integration it allows to trigger new builds for
>>>>>      > > Erlang packages when commiting new tag in repo
>>>>>      > > * you can set installation steps to deploy and run Erlang service
>>>>>      > > from prebuilt package on system without otp/Erlang installed
>>>>>      > > with `coon install namespace/name`
>>>>>      > >
>>>>>      > > Documentation, articles and links:
>>>>>      > >
>>>>>      > > coon (client) - https://github.com/comtihon/coon
>>>>>      > > <https://github.com/comtihon/coon>; see Readme.md and doc folder
>>>>>      > >
>>>>>      > > coon_auto_builder (server) -
>>>>>      > > https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder
>>>>>      > > <https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder>;
>>>>>      > >
>>>>>      > > how to create and build Erlang service from scratch
>>>>>      > > https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/
>>>>>      > >
>>>>>     <https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/>;
>>>>>      > >
>>>>>      > > how to prepare Erlang service for deploy
>>>>>      > >
>>>>>      >
>>>>>     https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/
>>>>>      > >
>>>>>      >
>>>>>     <https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/>;
>>>>>
>>>>>      > >
>>>>>      > > example service which uses coon
>>>>>      > > https://github.com/comtihon/example_service
>>>>>      > > <https://github.com/comtihon/example_service>;
>>>>>      > >
>>>>>      > > example library which uses coon
>>>>>      > > https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang
>>>>>      > > <https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang>;
>>>>>      > >
>>>>>      > > Hope you find this tool useful :)
>>>>>      > >
>>>>>      > >
>>>>>      > >
>>>>>      > >
>>>>>      > > _______________________________________________
>>>>>      > > erlang-questions mailing list
>>>>>      > > [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>>>      > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
>>>>>      > > <http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions>;
>>>>>      > >
>>>>>      > >
>>>>>      > >
>>>>>      > >
>>>>>      > > _______________________________________________
>>>>>      > > erlang-questions mailing list
>>>>>      > > [hidden email]
>>>>>      > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
>>>>>      > >
>>>>>      >
>>>>>      > --
>>>>>      > Lo?c Hoguin
>>>>>      > https://ninenines.eu
>>>>>      > _______________________________________________
>>>>>      > erlang-questions mailing list
>>>>>      > [hidden email]
>>>>>      > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
>>>>>      >
>>>>>
>>>>>     --     Lo?c Hoguin
>>>>>     https://ninenines.eu
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Loïc Hoguin
>>>>
>>>> https://ninenines.eu
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> erlang-questions mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> erlang-questions mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Xavier Noria
In reply to this post by zxq9-2
Humoristic break: Mitshubishi renamed the "Pajero" in Spain because it means "wanker" in Spanish slang.

Points have been made. To me, it's the author's call.


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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Krister Svanlund
I love it how this thread essentially turned into the anti-SJW crowd becoming angry and upset for someone politely pointing out a possibly bad connotation of the name. Yet again proving who the easily offended people are 😂

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:36 PM Xavier Noria <[hidden email]> wrote:
Humoristic break: Mitshubishi renamed the "Pajero" in Spain because it means "wanker" in Spanish slang.

Points have been made. To me, it's the author's call.

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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Fred Hebert-2
In reply to this post by zxq9-2


On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:29 AM, <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 2018年2月12日月曜日 10時16分51秒 JST Fred Hebert wrote:
> Intent does not matter.

No.

Fred, I have enormous respect for you and have gone several rounds with you on several subjects, each time having learned something for my own part. On technical subjects, anyway.

But... INTENT

You are demonstraby wrong already. Just stop. You will not win against the weight of history.

I am not wrong in not wanting to ever introduce this library in my god damn workplace. Because I know and have worked with people who do find this kind of shit offensive.

I'm happy you live in a place and in a context where everyone is fine with that. This has not been the reality of the people I have spent time with both professionally and personally.
 

This is becoming some SJW ridiculousness already, not because you care about that but because of the ambient temperature. I know SJW flippancy is not your intent, but that is the only place this winds up going these days. That is not a small failure -- it quickly becomes a systemic one, not just in a concurrent software system of ephemeral importance, but a concrete socio-economic one of critical importance that pays for all the other parties we enjoy.

I'm surprised that you find the idea that using a term that can very reasonably be construed as racist is SJW flippancy.

Let's take a quick look by looking at first definitions on Urban Dictionary for a game. I picked random animal names or short terms:
 Oh hm. Sorry I guess the usage is really forgotten for that one.

Intent does not matter is not me saying that the author of the lib is racist or ill-intended. It's me saying that no matter the original intent, the consequences will be the result of the reader's interpretation. Look this is even a principle in literary review called The death of the author (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_the_Author):

In his essay, Barthes argues against the method of reading and criticism that relies on aspects of the author's identity—their political views, historical context, religion, ethnicity, psychology, or other biographical or personal attributes—to distill meaning from the author's work. In this type of criticism, the experiences and biases of the author serve as a definitive "explanation" of the text. For Barthes, this method of reading may be apparently tidy and convenient but is actually sloppy and flawed: "To give a text an author" and assign a single, corresponding interpretation to it "is to impose a limit on that text".

[...]

In a well-known quotation, Barthes draws an analogy between text and textiles, declaring that a "text is a tissue [or fabric] of quotations", drawn from "innumerable centers of culture", rather than from one, individual experience. The essential meaning of a work depends on the impressions of the reader, rather than the "passions" or "tastes" of the writer; "a text's unity lies not in its origins", or its creator, "but in its destination", or its audience.

The whole point is that you cannot reasonably expect the author to be around to give meaning and maintain these things. What the author intends is not relevant in the long run because the interpretation can get away from it. It's like in satire: good satire/irony/sarcasm must be visible and enough in your face that it won't be construed as supporting the system you are attempting to criticize.

Intent does not matter.



Riddle me this:
If we cannot undersand enough about the software systems that WE WRITE OURSELVES that we need the "let it crash" mentality, how is it that we somehow understand to a manifest degree the economic and social value systems (which are profoundly more complex than our petty software systems) that we can dictate value within them? By what restart mechanism is this all brought back to a "reasonble default"?

I am sincerely desirous of an answer here, because I have a profound respect for your intellect but cannot imagine that you have properly considered the alternatives or where this path of discourse winds up eventualy going.

I very much stand by intent does not matter. It matters to me in this context and I do not yet judge Valery negatively, I trust that raccoon was indeed the original name intent. It does not mean that other people will do the same. Expecting other people to do the same is downright absurd and foolish. If your entire position relies on explaining every single person the origin of the name for things to go well, you have taken the losing battle of tilting at windmills. This is the hill you die on. What I'm doing here is giving a really fucking serious warning of how much windmill tilting you'll get into.

If you want me to go by the Let it Crash maxim, the idea of let it crash is to not try to handle all the errors and letting them fail early and often. Start from a clean slate rather than trying to correct corrupted state. What I'm doing here is trying to crash this stupid ass project name as early as possible so the author doesn't get stuck trying to handle every error coming their way in the near future. Look at it this way. You even have a bunch of terms for it in this single thread: SJW Flippancy. Loic brought up identity politics. Roman is trying make a tally of who is it who's offended in the first place as if that made any difference the moment this gets out of here.

If you can't see that as a warning sign when this discussion is taking place within mailing list regulars, what will be a reasonable waning sign to you?

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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Michael L Martin

Spot on, Fred. I concur with every point.


On 2018-02-12 10:46 AM, Fred Hebert wrote:


On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:29 AM, <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 2018年2月12日月曜日 10時16分51秒 JST Fred Hebert wrote:
> Intent does not matter.

No.

Fred, I have enormous respect for you and have gone several rounds with you on several subjects, each time having learned something for my own part. On technical subjects, anyway.

But... INTENT

You are demonstraby wrong already. Just stop. You will not win against the weight of history.

I am not wrong in not wanting to ever introduce this library in my god damn workplace. Because I know and have worked with people who do find this kind of shit offensive.

I'm happy you live in a place and in a context where everyone is fine with that. This has not been the reality of the people I have spent time with both professionally and personally.
 

This is becoming some SJW ridiculousness already, not because you care about that but because of the ambient temperature. I know SJW flippancy is not your intent, but that is the only place this winds up going these days. That is not a small failure -- it quickly becomes a systemic one, not just in a concurrent software system of ephemeral importance, but a concrete socio-economic one of critical importance that pays for all the other parties we enjoy.

I'm surprised that you find the idea that using a term that can very reasonably be construed as racist is SJW flippancy.

Let's take a quick look by looking at first definitions on Urban Dictionary for a game. I picked random animal names or short terms:
 Oh hm. Sorry I guess the usage is really forgotten for that one.

Intent does not matter is not me saying that the author of the lib is racist or ill-intended. It's me saying that no matter the original intent, the consequences will be the result of the reader's interpretation. Look this is even a principle in literary review called The death of the author (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_the_Author):

In his essay, Barthes argues against the method of reading and criticism that relies on aspects of the author's identity—their political views, historical context, religion, ethnicity, psychology, or other biographical or personal attributes—to distill meaning from the author's work. In this type of criticism, the experiences and biases of the author serve as a definitive "explanation" of the text. For Barthes, this method of reading may be apparently tidy and convenient but is actually sloppy and flawed: "To give a text an author" and assign a single, corresponding interpretation to it "is to impose a limit on that text".

[...]

In a well-known quotation, Barthes draws an analogy between text and textiles, declaring that a "text is a tissue [or fabric] of quotations", drawn from "innumerable centers of culture", rather than from one, individual experience. The essential meaning of a work depends on the impressions of the reader, rather than the "passions" or "tastes" of the writer; "a text's unity lies not in its origins", or its creator, "but in its destination", or its audience.

The whole point is that you cannot reasonably expect the author to be around to give meaning and maintain these things. What the author intends is not relevant in the long run because the interpretation can get away from it. It's like in satire: good satire/irony/sarcasm must be visible and enough in your face that it won't be construed as supporting the system you are attempting to criticize.

Intent does not matter.



Riddle me this:
If we cannot undersand enough about the software systems that WE WRITE OURSELVES that we need the "let it crash" mentality, how is it that we somehow understand to a manifest degree the economic and social value systems (which are profoundly more complex than our petty software systems) that we can dictate value within them? By what restart mechanism is this all brought back to a "reasonble default"?

I am sincerely desirous of an answer here, because I have a profound respect for your intellect but cannot imagine that you have properly considered the alternatives or where this path of discourse winds up eventualy going.

I very much stand by intent does not matter. It matters to me in this context and I do not yet judge Valery negatively, I trust that raccoon was indeed the original name intent. It does not mean that other people will do the same. Expecting other people to do the same is downright absurd and foolish. If your entire position relies on explaining every single person the origin of the name for things to go well, you have taken the losing battle of tilting at windmills. This is the hill you die on. What I'm doing here is giving a really fucking serious warning of how much windmill tilting you'll get into.

If you want me to go by the Let it Crash maxim, the idea of let it crash is to not try to handle all the errors and letting them fail early and often. Start from a clean slate rather than trying to correct corrupted state. What I'm doing here is trying to crash this stupid ass project name as early as possible so the author doesn't get stuck trying to handle every error coming their way in the near future. Look at it this way. You even have a bunch of terms for it in this single thread: SJW Flippancy. Loic brought up identity politics. Roman is trying make a tally of who is it who's offended in the first place as if that made any difference the moment this gets out of here.

If you can't see that as a warning sign when this discussion is taking place within mailing list regulars, what will be a reasonable waning sign to you?


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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

zxq9-2
In reply to this post by Xavier Noria
On 2018年2月12日月曜日 16時35分47秒 JST Xavier Noria wrote:
> Humoristic break: Mitshubishi renamed the "Pajero" in Spain because it
> means "wanker" in Spanish slang.
>
> Points have been made. To me, it's the author's call.

HEY! That OFFENDS me as a JAPANESE citizen!

Oh, and that is inauthentic because I happen to be ETHNICALLY CAUCASIAN?!?

Well, I'll just go claim both of those as dual point by which to feel OFFENDED, you unsufferable prick!

WHAT WILL MY KIDS THINK OF THIS! GENERATIONS OF OFFENSE! AHHHHHHHH!!!!

...

Ridiculous. Just freaking ridiculous. Can we PLEASE get back to caring about whether a software project helps solve enviro-centric problems for which Erlang in particular is infamous?

============

See my point?
Tiptoeing around offenses, especially ones which teeter half on ethnicity and half on nationality, are simply too hard to satisfy. Don't even get me started on the subjectivity of "gender politics".

Perception VS intention.
The eternal struggle -- one which those outside the actual circumstance of stress are powerless to undersatnd.
That said, those who have the option to perceive offense or not are greater men for giving the "benefit of the doubt". Amazing how such a deeply ancient and culturally agnostic concept seems to find universal resonance.

Some guys wrote a project that was useful.
Most people found it useful.
A handful of people found the name funny.
A tiny minority decided to be offended by it.
BUT THE USERS NEVER HAD ANY IDEA.

Wtf...
It is 2018 and wtf...

Resuming radio silence, as this is what passes for "critical discourse" these days.
Bye!

Ugh...


Will I be reviled in some circles for this post? Certainly.
Will I be reviled in some circles that wouldn't already be "offended" by the fact that I am an ex-Green Beret? No.

So screw it. This crap has gone far enough and the backswing isn't going to feel good for ANYONE.

-Craig
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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Zachary Kessin-2
In reply to this post by Fred Hebert-2
I would like to second what Fred said. I just went through something like this in a different context and I have to say "its not reasonable that <Group> is offended" is a pretty bad apology. 

Zach Kessin - CEO Finch Software
I boost sales with retail chatbots for fashion and cosmetics
+972 54 234 3956 / +44 203 734 9790 / +1 617 778 7213

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 5:46 PM, Fred Hebert <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:29 AM, <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 2018年2月12日月曜日 10時16分51秒 JST Fred Hebert wrote:
> Intent does not matter.

No.

Fred, I have enormous respect for you and have gone several rounds with you on several subjects, each time having learned something for my own part. On technical subjects, anyway.

But... INTENT

You are demonstraby wrong already. Just stop. You will not win against the weight of history.

I am not wrong in not wanting to ever introduce this library in my god damn workplace. Because I know and have worked with people who do find this kind of shit offensive.

I'm happy you live in a place and in a context where everyone is fine with that. This has not been the reality of the people I have spent time with both professionally and personally.
 

This is becoming some SJW ridiculousness already, not because you care about that but because of the ambient temperature. I know SJW flippancy is not your intent, but that is the only place this winds up going these days. That is not a small failure -- it quickly becomes a systemic one, not just in a concurrent software system of ephemeral importance, but a concrete socio-economic one of critical importance that pays for all the other parties we enjoy.

I'm surprised that you find the idea that using a term that can very reasonably be construed as racist is SJW flippancy.

Let's take a quick look by looking at first definitions on Urban Dictionary for a game. I picked random animal names or short terms:
 Oh hm. Sorry I guess the usage is really forgotten for that one.

Intent does not matter is not me saying that the author of the lib is racist or ill-intended. It's me saying that no matter the original intent, the consequences will be the result of the reader's interpretation. Look this is even a principle in literary review called The death of the author (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_the_Author):

In his essay, Barthes argues against the method of reading and criticism that relies on aspects of the author's identity—their political views, historical context, religion, ethnicity, psychology, or other biographical or personal attributes—to distill meaning from the author's work. In this type of criticism, the experiences and biases of the author serve as a definitive "explanation" of the text. For Barthes, this method of reading may be apparently tidy and convenient but is actually sloppy and flawed: "To give a text an author" and assign a single, corresponding interpretation to it "is to impose a limit on that text".

[...]

In a well-known quotation, Barthes draws an analogy between text and textiles, declaring that a "text is a tissue [or fabric] of quotations", drawn from "innumerable centers of culture", rather than from one, individual experience. The essential meaning of a work depends on the impressions of the reader, rather than the "passions" or "tastes" of the writer; "a text's unity lies not in its origins", or its creator, "but in its destination", or its audience.

The whole point is that you cannot reasonably expect the author to be around to give meaning and maintain these things. What the author intends is not relevant in the long run because the interpretation can get away from it. It's like in satire: good satire/irony/sarcasm must be visible and enough in your face that it won't be construed as supporting the system you are attempting to criticize.

Intent does not matter.



Riddle me this:
If we cannot undersand enough about the software systems that WE WRITE OURSELVES that we need the "let it crash" mentality, how is it that we somehow understand to a manifest degree the economic and social value systems (which are profoundly more complex than our petty software systems) that we can dictate value within them? By what restart mechanism is this all brought back to a "reasonble default"?

I am sincerely desirous of an answer here, because I have a profound respect for your intellect but cannot imagine that you have properly considered the alternatives or where this path of discourse winds up eventualy going.

I very much stand by intent does not matter. It matters to me in this context and I do not yet judge Valery negatively, I trust that raccoon was indeed the original name intent. It does not mean that other people will do the same. Expecting other people to do the same is downright absurd and foolish. If your entire position relies on explaining every single person the origin of the name for things to go well, you have taken the losing battle of tilting at windmills. This is the hill you die on. What I'm doing here is giving a really fucking serious warning of how much windmill tilting you'll get into.

If you want me to go by the Let it Crash maxim, the idea of let it crash is to not try to handle all the errors and letting them fail early and often. Start from a clean slate rather than trying to correct corrupted state. What I'm doing here is trying to crash this stupid ass project name as early as possible so the author doesn't get stuck trying to handle every error coming their way in the near future. Look at it this way. You even have a bunch of terms for it in this single thread: SJW Flippancy. Loic brought up identity politics. Roman is trying make a tally of who is it who's offended in the first place as if that made any difference the moment this gets out of here.

If you can't see that as a warning sign when this discussion is taking place within mailing list regulars, what will be a reasonable waning sign to you?

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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Valery Tikhonov
In reply to this post by Roman Galeev
Frankly speaking, I've expected another type of questions, when writing announcement.
Again - I selected name `coon` because `raccoon` was occupied. That's all.

Also I've always beleived that programmers are beyond the politics, sexism and all kind of discriminations. So not using library, that can potentially be useful is a little bit surprising for me.

It's a pity, that today I can't fully use language to express what I would like to. But to make everyone happy, I will create a wrapper around coon for those who don't like coon name itself.

P.S.: Just think - prohibiting words in the language will finally leave you with empty vocabulary.



2018-02-12 16:25 GMT+01:00 Roman Galeev <[hidden email]>:
> denigrate protected groups

I'm quite sure you can use any given word for that.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:22 PM, Loïc Hoguin <[hidden email]> wrote:
That's the thing about identity politics, it's not all offensive words that are bad, it's only those that can be used to denigrate protected groups (regardless of intent or how old or local the meaning is).

On 02/12/2018 04:18 PM, Roman Galeev wrote:
Well, we have git already and nobody seems to be offended.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:11 PM, Chris Waymire <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

    The idea that a software library that happens to share name with a
    racial slur that is over 180 years old and has not been part of
    common social use for several decades would make people angry is
    ridiculous. Especially when the word as meanings that pre-date the
    slur. If that upsets you to the point where you are unable to get
    past it then it is time to unplug your tv, your radio and your
    internet and live a life of peaceful solitude.

    On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 7:03 AM, Loïc Hoguin <[hidden email]
    <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

        This idea that white supremacists need a reason to call others
        using racial slurs is ridiculous at best. At this rate you will
        call me a Nazi by the next reply. Fingers crossed.

        Again Valery does not apply this term to black people or make
        any reference about them or the US History, so there's no intent
        here. He's using the other meaning.

        Soon you will argue that hunters are racists because they call
        racoons "coons".


        On 02/12/2018 03:53 PM, Josh Barney wrote:

            Intent IS important and the intent of the people who applied
            this term to black people was a very bad intent.

            ?People are getting offended much too easily these days? ?
            this argument has been plastered all over American news for
            years, always coming from a privileged group claiming hurt.
            This is the white supremesist position.


            On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:34 AM Lo?c Hoguin
            <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

                 This reminds me of people who were calling some coffee
            brand racist not
                 realizing that the Spanish or Portuguese translation
            for "black"
                 looks a
                 lot like a racist slur.

                 People are getting offended much too easily these days.
            Intent is
                 important and there's no intent to slur here.

                 On 02/12/2018 03:15 PM, Josh Barney wrote:
                  > One would presume that all the black persons who
            have been called
                 in an
                  > effort to reduce them to rabid animals hunted for
            sport by white men
                  > with dogs would be aware. That?s the import thing
            about racial
                 slurs,
                  > not that you are unhurt, but that someone else is hurt.
                  >
                  > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:04 AM Lo?c Hoguin
            <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
                 wrote:
                  >
                  > More importantly, who is aware of them? I doubt too
            many people
                 outside
                  > of North America know about it.
                  >
                  > And secondly, should you censor a word that's
            otherwise perfectly
                 fine
                  > because of its use in slang? It'll get some radical
            activists
                 angry for
                  > sure so it depends on whether you see this as a good
            or a bad thing.
                  > Nowadays that tends to be a good thing.
                  >
                  > Most people will not think twice about it.
                  >
                  > On 02/12/2018 02:17 PM, Fred Hebert wrote:
                  > > Are you aware of the connotations coming with that
            name?
                  > >
                  > > On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 4:05 PM, Valery Tikhonov
                  > > <[hidden email]
            <mailto:[hidden email]>
            <mailto:[hidden email]

            <mailto:[hidden email]>>>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hi,
                  > > I would like to introduce ?oon
                 <https://github.com/comtihon/coon
            <https://github.com/comtihon/coon>> -
                  > > build and dependency management system and tool
            for easy
                 deployment
                  > > Erlang packages.
                  > > In short:
                  > >
                  > > * coon uses prebuilt packages from CoonHub
                  > > <https://coon.justtech.blog>, what reduces build time
                  > > * thanks to github integration it allows to
            trigger new builds for
                  > > Erlang packages when commiting new tag in repo
                  > > * you can set installation steps to deploy and run
            Erlang service
                  > > from prebuilt package on system without otp/Erlang
            installed
                  > > with `coon install namespace/name`
                  > >
                  > > Documentation, articles and links:
                  > >
                  > > coon (client) - https://github.com/comtihon/coon
            <https://github.com/comtihon/coon>
                  > > <https://github.com/comtihon/coon
            <https://github.com/comtihon/coon>> see Readme.md and doc folder
                  > >
                  > > coon_auto_builder (server) -
                  > > https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder
            <https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder>
                  > > <https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder
            <https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder>>
                  > >
                  > > how to create and build Erlang service from scratch
                  > >
            https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/
            <https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/>
                  > >
                            <https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/
            <https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/>>
                  > >
                  > > how to prepare Erlang service for deploy
                  > >
                  >
            https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/
            <https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/>
                  > >
                  >
                            <https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/
            <https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/>>

                  > >
                  > > example service which uses coon
                  > > https://github.com/comtihon/example_service
            <https://github.com/comtihon/example_service>
                  > > <https://github.com/comtihon/example_service
            <https://github.com/comtihon/example_service>>
                  > >
                  > > example library which uses coon
                  > > https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang
            <https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang>
                  > > <https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang
            <https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang>>
                  > >
                  > > Hope you find this tool useful :)
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > _______________________________________________
                  > > erlang-questions mailing list
                  > > [hidden email]
            <mailto:[hidden email]>
            <mailto:[hidden email]
            <mailto:[hidden email]>>
                  > >
            http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
            <http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions>
                  > >
            <http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
            <http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions>>
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > _______________________________________________
                  > > erlang-questions mailing list
                  > > [hidden email]
            <mailto:[hidden email]>
                  > >
            http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
            <http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions>
                  > >
                  >
                  > --
                  > Lo?c Hoguin
                  > https://ninenines.eu
                  > _______________________________________________
                  > erlang-questions mailing list
                  > [hidden email]
            <mailto:[hidden email]>
                  > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
            <http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions>
                  >

                 --     Lo?c Hoguin
            https://ninenines.eu


        --         Loïc Hoguin

        https://ninenines.eu
        _______________________________________________
        erlang-questions mailing list
        [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
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With best regards,
      Roman Galeev,
      <a href="tel:%2B420%C2%A0702%20817%20968" value="+420702817968" target="_blank">+420 702 817 968

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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Roman Galeev
In reply to this post by Zachary Kessin-2
The worst part of it that nobody is offended at this very moment, but Fred speaks for people who could be offended, in his opinion. But could they, or could they not nobody knows (except them, but they are not present). Maybe the same people could be offended by other words as well, how do we know? And should we really care (having quite offensive names in the wild already)? Should we run all possible project names through the council of these people?

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:56 PM, Zachary Kessin <[hidden email]> wrote:
I would like to second what Fred said. I just went through something like this in a different context and I have to say "its not reasonable that <Group> is offended" is a pretty bad apology. 

Zach Kessin - CEO Finch Software
I boost sales with retail chatbots for fashion and cosmetics
<a href="tel:+972%2054-234-3956" value="+972542343956" target="_blank">+972 54 234 3956 / <a href="tel:+44%2020%203734%209790" value="+442037349790" target="_blank">+44 203 734 9790 / <a href="tel:(617)%20778-7213" value="+16177787213" target="_blank">+1 617 778 7213

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 5:46 PM, Fred Hebert <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:29 AM, <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 2018年2月12日月曜日 10時16分51秒 JST Fred Hebert wrote:
> Intent does not matter.

No.

Fred, I have enormous respect for you and have gone several rounds with you on several subjects, each time having learned something for my own part. On technical subjects, anyway.

But... INTENT

You are demonstraby wrong already. Just stop. You will not win against the weight of history.

I am not wrong in not wanting to ever introduce this library in my god damn workplace. Because I know and have worked with people who do find this kind of shit offensive.

I'm happy you live in a place and in a context where everyone is fine with that. This has not been the reality of the people I have spent time with both professionally and personally.
 

This is becoming some SJW ridiculousness already, not because you care about that but because of the ambient temperature. I know SJW flippancy is not your intent, but that is the only place this winds up going these days. That is not a small failure -- it quickly becomes a systemic one, not just in a concurrent software system of ephemeral importance, but a concrete socio-economic one of critical importance that pays for all the other parties we enjoy.

I'm surprised that you find the idea that using a term that can very reasonably be construed as racist is SJW flippancy.

Let's take a quick look by looking at first definitions on Urban Dictionary for a game. I picked random animal names or short terms:
 Oh hm. Sorry I guess the usage is really forgotten for that one.

Intent does not matter is not me saying that the author of the lib is racist or ill-intended. It's me saying that no matter the original intent, the consequences will be the result of the reader's interpretation. Look this is even a principle in literary review called The death of the author (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_the_Author):

In his essay, Barthes argues against the method of reading and criticism that relies on aspects of the author's identity—their political views, historical context, religion, ethnicity, psychology, or other biographical or personal attributes—to distill meaning from the author's work. In this type of criticism, the experiences and biases of the author serve as a definitive "explanation" of the text. For Barthes, this method of reading may be apparently tidy and convenient but is actually sloppy and flawed: "To give a text an author" and assign a single, corresponding interpretation to it "is to impose a limit on that text".

[...]

In a well-known quotation, Barthes draws an analogy between text and textiles, declaring that a "text is a tissue [or fabric] of quotations", drawn from "innumerable centers of culture", rather than from one, individual experience. The essential meaning of a work depends on the impressions of the reader, rather than the "passions" or "tastes" of the writer; "a text's unity lies not in its origins", or its creator, "but in its destination", or its audience.

The whole point is that you cannot reasonably expect the author to be around to give meaning and maintain these things. What the author intends is not relevant in the long run because the interpretation can get away from it. It's like in satire: good satire/irony/sarcasm must be visible and enough in your face that it won't be construed as supporting the system you are attempting to criticize.

Intent does not matter.



Riddle me this:
If we cannot undersand enough about the software systems that WE WRITE OURSELVES that we need the "let it crash" mentality, how is it that we somehow understand to a manifest degree the economic and social value systems (which are profoundly more complex than our petty software systems) that we can dictate value within them? By what restart mechanism is this all brought back to a "reasonble default"?

I am sincerely desirous of an answer here, because I have a profound respect for your intellect but cannot imagine that you have properly considered the alternatives or where this path of discourse winds up eventualy going.

I very much stand by intent does not matter. It matters to me in this context and I do not yet judge Valery negatively, I trust that raccoon was indeed the original name intent. It does not mean that other people will do the same. Expecting other people to do the same is downright absurd and foolish. If your entire position relies on explaining every single person the origin of the name for things to go well, you have taken the losing battle of tilting at windmills. This is the hill you die on. What I'm doing here is giving a really fucking serious warning of how much windmill tilting you'll get into.

If you want me to go by the Let it Crash maxim, the idea of let it crash is to not try to handle all the errors and letting them fail early and often. Start from a clean slate rather than trying to correct corrupted state. What I'm doing here is trying to crash this stupid ass project name as early as possible so the author doesn't get stuck trying to handle every error coming their way in the near future. Look at it this way. You even have a bunch of terms for it in this single thread: SJW Flippancy. Loic brought up identity politics. Roman is trying make a tally of who is it who's offended in the first place as if that made any difference the moment this gets out of here.

If you can't see that as a warning sign when this discussion is taking place within mailing list regulars, what will be a reasonable waning sign to you?

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     +420 702 817 968

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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

zxq9-2
On 2018年2月12日月曜日 17時08分21秒 JST Roman Galeev wrote:
> The worst part of it that nobody is offended at this very moment, but Fred
> speaks for people who could be offended, in his opinion. But could they, or
> could they not nobody knows (except them, but they are not present). Maybe
> the same people could be offended by other words as well, how do we know?
> And should we really care (having quite offensive names in the wild
> already)? Should we run all possible project names through the council of
> these people?

"these people"

THESE PEOPLE!?!

AHHH!

====

I rest my case. As someone who could easily fall into the category of "these people" if I so chose.

Srsly, people, can we talk about what the project actually does for once instead of what it is named?

-Craig
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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Kostis Sagonas-2
In reply to this post by Fred Hebert-2
On 02/12/2018 04:16 PM, Fred Hebert wrote:
>
> This e-mail thread is already making the rounds on a few slack
> communities I'm on and the outlook is//at worst that the Erlang
> community is full of racists, or at best that it's full of people with
> terrible judgement.

Personally, I do not care about what happens on "slack" because I have
not subscribed to it.  I _do_ care about this mailing list because I am
interested in the *Erlang language*.

Today, I have received just two e-mails with Erlang-related
announcements and, after Fred's sincere question to the author on
whether he is aware of the connotations that the word "coon" has - which
by the way I think is very appropriate as a *single* mail to the author
here, by now several tens of mails about the possible meanings of
different words in different languages, and about how to name or not
name software.

I can admit that perhaps these are more important issues than those that
answer Erlang language-related questions and inform about developments,
but can you guys please move this discussion to slack or some other
forum where such discussions are more appropriate?

Can we instead see in this list some mail(s) whether this "coon" tool
(or whatever other name it may get) is actually useful (or not) for the
community of the language, and how it can possibly improve?

Thanks,
Kostis
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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Fred Hebert-2
In reply to this post by Roman Galeev


On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:08 AM, Roman Galeev <[hidden email]> wrote:
The worst part of it that nobody is offended at this very moment, but Fred speaks for people who could be offended, in his opinion. But could they, or could they not nobody knows (except them, but they are not present).

I know because of I have an ounce of empathy and I know these people already. I know you really really want me to have invented them but I did not.

Maybe the same people could be offended by other words as well, how do we know? And should we really care (having quite offensive names in the wild already)? Should we run all possible project names through the council of these people?


Yeah maybe they could be offended by other names. Maybe they won't. It's up to the author to figure out if they want to deal with it. What I'm giving here is a very real warning. If the author is fine offending people, that's up to them, and they'll deal with it. I won't be the one defending them.

Loic can correct me if he's wrong, but his Cowboy web server took its initial name because cowboys kill apaches if I recall old conference conversations. I think it's of poor taste, but so far Loic has not had any fall out or enough offended people to make any change, and he did build a successful business out of it. He made the call and ran with it.


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