Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Tristan Sloughter-4
This is awful. But sadly not surprising. Intent only matters in the sense the author is not at fault. Intent does not matter when it comes to whether or not you want to not push people away.

For those who don't care what I or Fred say since we are white, it is easy enough to go ask Black developers in North American.

--
  Tristan Sloughter
  "I am not a crackpot" - Abe Simpson
  [hidden email]

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018, at 7:29 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

> On 2018年2月12日月曜日 10時16分51秒 JST Fred Hebert wrote:
> > Intent does not matter.
>
> No.
>
> Fred, I have enormous respect for you and have gone several rounds with
> you on several subjects, each time having learned something for my own
> part. On technical subjects, anyway.
>
> But... INTENT
>
> You are demonstraby wrong already. Just stop. You will not win against
> the weight of history.
>
> This is becoming some SJW ridiculousness already, not because you care
> about that but because of the ambient temperature. I know SJW flippancy
> is not your intent, but that is the only place this winds up going these
> days. That is not a small failure -- it quickly becomes a systemic one,
> not just in a concurrent software system of ephemeral importance, but a
> concrete socio-economic one of critical importance that pays for all the
> other parties we enjoy.
>
> Riddle me this:
> If we cannot undersand enough about the software systems that WE WRITE
> OURSELVES that we need the "let it crash" mentality, how is it that we
> somehow understand to a manifest degree the economic and social value
> systems (which are profoundly more complex than our petty software
> systems) that we can dictate value within them? By what restart
> mechanism is this all brought back to a "reasonble default"?
>
> I am sincerely desirous of an answer here, because I have a profound
> respect for your intellect but cannot imagine that you have properly
> considered the alternatives or where this path of discourse winds up
> eventualy going.
>
> -Craig
> _______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Krzysztof Jurewicz
In reply to this post by Fred Hebert-2
Fred Hebert writes:

> Anyone is of course free to name their software whatever they want. Picking
> a racist name is however never going to be consequences-free as this e-mail
> thread first shows on the first day of release, and adoption figures may
> also reflect it.

Merriam-Webster online dictionary (naming itself as “America’s most-trusted online dictionary”) says that there two meanings of “coon”:

⒈ raccoon;
⒉ offensive — used as an insulting and contemptuous term for a black person.

I presume that context matters. What makes you think that in this context this word means ⒉? Wikipedia in the article about raccoon says that is also known coloquially as “coon”, so I guess this is not a very uncommon usage.

Or are you saying that non-racist usages of words that have also racist meanings should be eventually abandoned?

(I’m not a native speaker, so bear with my eventual ignorance).
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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Roman Galeev
In reply to this post by Fred Hebert-2
> I know because of I have an ounce of empathy and I know these people already.

So, as you know these people, you've checked the name coon with them, and they told you that they are offended, right? In this case, I think the tool should be renamed.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 5:13 PM, Fred Hebert <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:08 AM, Roman Galeev <[hidden email]> wrote:
The worst part of it that nobody is offended at this very moment, but Fred speaks for people who could be offended, in his opinion. But could they, or could they not nobody knows (except them, but they are not present).

I know because of I have an ounce of empathy and I know these people already. I know you really really want me to have invented them but I did not.

Maybe the same people could be offended by other words as well, how do we know? And should we really care (having quite offensive names in the wild already)? Should we run all possible project names through the council of these people?


Yeah maybe they could be offended by other names. Maybe they won't. It's up to the author to figure out if they want to deal with it. What I'm giving here is a very real warning. If the author is fine offending people, that's up to them, and they'll deal with it. I won't be the one defending them.

Loic can correct me if he's wrong, but his Cowboy web server took its initial name because cowboys kill apaches if I recall old conference conversations. I think it's of poor taste, but so far Loic has not had any fall out or enough offended people to make any change, and he did build a successful business out of it. He made the call and ran with it.




--
With best regards,
     Roman Galeev,
     +420 702 817 968

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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Fred Hebert-2
In reply to this post by Krzysztof Jurewicz
What I'm saying is that it does not matter how I interpret things. I asked and the author said publicly it was a raccoon. I'm okay with that explanation and I'm ready to believe it.

My point is that other people won't ask the author, won't know who he is, and will pick an interpretation and stick with it. They won't need the context, they won't need anything. They'll just do it. The name can be interpreted in a racist way, and so it's pretty much guaranteed that it will be eventually interpreted that way. The author is free to go ahead and keep the name, and the users and onlookers will be free to read whatever they want in that name.

That is 100% my point.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:17 AM, Krzysztof Jurewicz <[hidden email]> wrote:
Fred Hebert writes:

> Anyone is of course free to name their software whatever they want. Picking
> a racist name is however never going to be consequences-free as this e-mail
> thread first shows on the first day of release, and adoption figures may
> also reflect it.

Merriam-Webster online dictionary (naming itself as “America’s most-trusted online dictionary”) says that there two meanings of “coon”:

⒈ raccoon;
⒉ offensive — used as an insulting and contemptuous term for a black person.

I presume that context matters. What makes you think that in this context this word means ⒉? Wikipedia in the article about raccoon says that is also known coloquially as “coon”, so I guess this is not a very uncommon usage.

Or are you saying that non-racist usages of words that have also racist meanings should be eventually abandoned?

(I’m not a native speaker, so bear with my eventual ignorance).


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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

nx-2
For what it's worth, the first thing I thought of when I saw the title of this thread was "that is a racist slur". I've also never heard anyone call a raccoon a coon.

The news that cowboy was named for "cowboys kill apaches" is disappointing.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:22 AM Fred Hebert <[hidden email]> wrote:
What I'm saying is that it does not matter how I interpret things. I asked and the author said publicly it was a raccoon. I'm okay with that explanation and I'm ready to believe it.

My point is that other people won't ask the author, won't know who he is, and will pick an interpretation and stick with it. They won't need the context, they won't need anything. They'll just do it. The name can be interpreted in a racist way, and so it's pretty much guaranteed that it will be eventually interpreted that way. The author is free to go ahead and keep the name, and the users and onlookers will be free to read whatever they want in that name.

That is 100% my point.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:17 AM, Krzysztof Jurewicz <[hidden email]> wrote:
Fred Hebert writes:

> Anyone is of course free to name their software whatever they want. Picking
> a racist name is however never going to be consequences-free as this e-mail
> thread first shows on the first day of release, and adoption figures may
> also reflect it.

Merriam-Webster online dictionary (naming itself as “America’s most-trusted online dictionary”) says that there two meanings of “coon”:

⒈ raccoon;
⒉ offensive — used as an insulting and contemptuous term for a black person.

I presume that context matters. What makes you think that in this context this word means ⒉? Wikipedia in the article about raccoon says that is also known coloquially as “coon”, so I guess this is not a very uncommon usage.

Or are you saying that non-racist usages of words that have also racist meanings should be eventually abandoned?

(I’m not a native speaker, so bear with my eventual ignorance).

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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Chris Duesing-3
I can't believe this "discussion" is happening. Coon is a racial slur, there is no other use of the word. The fact that a bunch of white Europeans are pointing out that the dozen people involved in this thread aren't offended simply shows the lack of diversity in the mailing list. The "oh I'm butthurt because other people get offended by things" is fucking ridiculous. It is a racial slur, period. If this isn't a library only intended to be used by racist fucks then rename it.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:28 AM, nx <[hidden email]> wrote:
For what it's worth, the first thing I thought of when I saw the title of this thread was "that is a racist slur". I've also never heard anyone call a raccoon a coon.

The news that cowboy was named for "cowboys kill apaches" is disappointing.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:22 AM Fred Hebert <[hidden email]> wrote:
What I'm saying is that it does not matter how I interpret things. I asked and the author said publicly it was a raccoon. I'm okay with that explanation and I'm ready to believe it.

My point is that other people won't ask the author, won't know who he is, and will pick an interpretation and stick with it. They won't need the context, they won't need anything. They'll just do it. The name can be interpreted in a racist way, and so it's pretty much guaranteed that it will be eventually interpreted that way. The author is free to go ahead and keep the name, and the users and onlookers will be free to read whatever they want in that name.

That is 100% my point.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:17 AM, Krzysztof Jurewicz <[hidden email]> wrote:
Fred Hebert writes:

> Anyone is of course free to name their software whatever they want. Picking
> a racist name is however never going to be consequences-free as this e-mail
> thread first shows on the first day of release, and adoption figures may
> also reflect it.

Merriam-Webster online dictionary (naming itself as “America’s most-trusted online dictionary”) says that there two meanings of “coon”:

⒈ raccoon;
⒉ offensive — used as an insulting and contemptuous term for a black person.

I presume that context matters. What makes you think that in this context this word means ⒉? Wikipedia in the article about raccoon says that is also known coloquially as “coon”, so I guess this is not a very uncommon usage.

Or are you saying that non-racist usages of words that have also racist meanings should be eventually abandoned?

(I’m not a native speaker, so bear with my eventual ignorance).

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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Jordan Chaitin
In reply to this post by Chris Waymire
Not being from North America, I am (was) unaware of the connotations surrounding coon.

But I’d like to share something related: while living in Europe, a friend wanted to set up a food stall and call it the SS Amsterdam. SS being the abbreviation for Sweets and Snacks, which is what the proposed stall would be selling. The name got shot down (on account of it reminding people of the Nazi SS) by everyone he presented to, including friends, colleagues, acquaintances, and investors. Ultimately he had to change the name. I won’t divulge whether or not he went ahead with a new name or dropped the whole thing. I thought the whole criticism was hypocritical and funny, because nobody seemed to have a problem with the SS Rotterdam, which is a popular former cruise ship and current hotel ship. Maybe it has to do with the fact that SS, as a naval abbreviation (for Steam Ship, or technically Steam Screw) predates the use by the Nazis, whereas the Nazis predate the hypothetical SS Amsterdam proposed by my friend. Going by that line of reasoning, Coon as a slur predates coon as a package manager, and hence takes precedence. Not that I agree with it. But it does seem to rile people up.

Cheers



> On Feb 12, 2018, at 20:41, Chris Waymire <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The idea that a software library that happens to share name with a racial slur that is over 180 years old and has not been part of common social use for several decades would make people angry is ridiculous. Especially when the word as meanings that pre-date the slur. If that upsets you to the point where you are unable to get past it then it is time to unplug your tv, your radio and your internet and live a life of peaceful solitude.
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 7:03 AM, Loïc Hoguin <[hidden email]> wrote:
> This idea that white supremacists need a reason to call others using racial slurs is ridiculous at best. At this rate you will call me a Nazi by the next reply. Fingers crossed.
>
> Again Valery does not apply this term to black people or make any reference about them or the US History, so there's no intent here. He's using the other meaning.
>
> Soon you will argue that hunters are racists because they call racoons "coons".
>
>
> On 02/12/2018 03:53 PM, Josh Barney wrote:
> Intent IS important and the intent of the people who applied this term to black people was a very bad intent.
>
> ?People are getting offended much too easily these days? ? this argument has been plastered all over American news for years, always coming from a privileged group claiming hurt. This is the white supremesist position.
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:34 AM Lo?c Hoguin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>     This reminds me of people who were calling some coffee brand racist not
>     realizing that the Spanish or Portuguese translation for "black"
>     looks a
>     lot like a racist slur.
>
>     People are getting offended much too easily these days. Intent is
>     important and there's no intent to slur here.
>
>     On 02/12/2018 03:15 PM, Josh Barney wrote:
>      > One would presume that all the black persons who have been called
>     in an
>      > effort to reduce them to rabid animals hunted for sport by white men
>      > with dogs would be aware. That?s the import thing about racial
>     slurs,
>      > not that you are unhurt, but that someone else is hurt.
>      >
>      > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:04 AM Lo?c Hoguin <[hidden email]>
>     wrote:
>      >
>      > More importantly, who is aware of them? I doubt too many people
>     outside
>      > of North America know about it.
>      >
>      > And secondly, should you censor a word that's otherwise perfectly
>     fine
>      > because of its use in slang? It'll get some radical activists
>     angry for
>      > sure so it depends on whether you see this as a good or a bad thing.
>      > Nowadays that tends to be a good thing.
>      >
>      > Most people will not think twice about it.
>      >
>      > On 02/12/2018 02:17 PM, Fred Hebert wrote:
>      > > Are you aware of the connotations coming with that name?
>      > >
>      > > On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 4:05 PM, Valery Tikhonov
>      > > <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>      > wrote:
>      > >
>      > > Hi,
>      > > I would like to introduce ?oon
>     <https://github.com/comtihon/coon> -
>      > > build and dependency management system and tool for easy
>     deployment
>      > > Erlang packages.
>      > > In short:
>      > >
>      > > * coon uses prebuilt packages from CoonHub
>      > > <https://coon.justtech.blog>, what reduces build time
>      > > * thanks to github integration it allows to trigger new builds for
>      > > Erlang packages when commiting new tag in repo
>      > > * you can set installation steps to deploy and run Erlang service
>      > > from prebuilt package on system without otp/Erlang installed
>      > > with `coon install namespace/name`
>      > >
>      > > Documentation, articles and links:
>      > >
>      > > coon (client) - https://github.com/comtihon/coon
>      > > <https://github.com/comtihon/coon> see Readme.md and doc folder
>      > >
>      > > coon_auto_builder (server) -
>      > > https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder
>      > > <https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder>
>      > >
>      > > how to create and build Erlang service from scratch
>      > > https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/
>      > >
>     <https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/>
>      > >
>      > > how to prepare Erlang service for deploy
>      > >
>      >
>     https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/
>      > >
>      >
>     <https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/>
>
>      > >
>      > > example service which uses coon
>      > > https://github.com/comtihon/example_service
>      > > <https://github.com/comtihon/example_service>
>      > >
>      > > example library which uses coon
>      > > https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang
>      > > <https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang>
>      > >
>      > > Hope you find this tool useful :)
>      > >
>      > >
>      > >
>      > >
>      > > _______________________________________________
>      > > erlang-questions mailing list
>      > > [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>      > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
>      > > <http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions>
>      > >
>      > >
>      > >
>      > >
>      > > _______________________________________________
>      > > erlang-questions mailing list
>      > > [hidden email]
>      > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
>      > >
>      >
>      > --
>      > Lo?c Hoguin
>      > https://ninenines.eu
>      > _______________________________________________
>      > erlang-questions mailing list
>      > [hidden email]
>      > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
>      >
>
>     --     Lo?c Hoguin
>     https://ninenines.eu
>
>
> --
> Loïc Hoguin
>
> https://ninenines.eu
> _______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
>
> _______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions

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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Russell Brown-3
In reply to this post by Tristan Sloughter-4
Tristan is right. This really is awful. I can’t believe there’s even an argument. If someone emailed me to tell me that my library's name was offensive, I’d apologises and change it. Maybe that’s just me. I think this case is indefensible. And those who ask that we _not talk about it_ but instead talk about the technical merits, no.

If there’s a commercial entity associated with this I hope they act soon.

I need to use erlang for my work, please don’t stick with this name. I don’t want to be in anyway even tangentially associated with it. Does github not have some policy about this repo name, also?

On 12 Feb 2018, at 17:16, Tristan Sloughter <[hidden email]> wrote:

> This is awful. But sadly not surprising. Intent only matters in the sense the author is not at fault. Intent does not matter when it comes to whether or not you want to not push people away.
>
> For those who don't care what I or Fred say since we are white, it is easy enough to go ask Black developers in North American.
>
> --
>  Tristan Sloughter
>  "I am not a crackpot" - Abe Simpson
>  [hidden email]
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018, at 7:29 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>> On 2018年2月12日月曜日 10時16分51秒 JST Fred Hebert wrote:
>>> Intent does not matter.
>>
>> No.
>>
>> Fred, I have enormous respect for you and have gone several rounds with
>> you on several subjects, each time having learned something for my own
>> part. On technical subjects, anyway.
>>
>> But... INTENT
>>
>> You are demonstraby wrong already. Just stop. You will not win against
>> the weight of history.
>>
>> This is becoming some SJW ridiculousness already, not because you care
>> about that but because of the ambient temperature. I know SJW flippancy
>> is not your intent, but that is the only place this winds up going these
>> days. That is not a small failure -- it quickly becomes a systemic one,
>> not just in a concurrent software system of ephemeral importance, but a
>> concrete socio-economic one of critical importance that pays for all the
>> other parties we enjoy.
>>
>> Riddle me this:
>> If we cannot undersand enough about the software systems that WE WRITE
>> OURSELVES that we need the "let it crash" mentality, how is it that we
>> somehow understand to a manifest degree the economic and social value
>> systems (which are profoundly more complex than our petty software
>> systems) that we can dictate value within them? By what restart
>> mechanism is this all brought back to a "reasonble default"?
>>
>> I am sincerely desirous of an answer here, because I have a profound
>> respect for your intellect but cannot imagine that you have properly
>> considered the alternatives or where this path of discourse winds up
>> eventualy going.
>>
>> -Craig
>> _______________________________________________
>> erlang-questions mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Antonio SJ Musumeci
In reply to this post by Chris Duesing-3
"Coon is a racial slur, there is no other use of the word."

That's simply false and takes next to no time to prove as much.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/coon

noun
1.
2.
Slang: Extremely Disparaging and Offensive. a contemptuous term used to refer to a black person.
3.
a rustic or undignified person.

Word Origin and History for coon
n.

short for raccoon, 1742, American English. It was the nickname of Whig Party members in U.S. c.1848-60, as the raccoon was the party's symbol, and it also had associations with frontiersmen (who stereotypically wore raccoon-skin caps), which probably ultimately was the source of the Whig Party sense (the party's 1840 campaign was built on a false image of wealthy William Henry Harrison as a rustic frontiersman).

The insulting U.S. meaning "black person" was in use by 1837, said to be ultimately from Portuguese barracoos "building constructed to hold slaves for sale." No doubt boosted by the enormously popular blackface minstrel act "Zip Coon" (George Washington Dixon) which debuted in New York City in 1834. But it is perhaps older (one of the lead characters in the 1767 colonial comic opera "The Disappointment" is a black man named Raccoon). Coon's age is 1843, American English, probably an alteration of British a crow's age.


The word coon has long been used as a short to raccoon. As someone who grew up in a rural area where raccoons regularly killed chickens, ate pet food, and got into people's things I assure you it was in common usage. We also shortened coyote to coyot.

Outside that...

* Coon Mountain: http://adirondacklandtrust.org/Explore/Coon-Mountain
* Coon Creek: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coon_Creek
* Coon Rapids: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coon_Rapids,_Minnesota https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coon_Rapids,_Iowa
* The Coon: A South Park character: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Coon


On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:52 AM, Chris Duesing <[hidden email]> wrote:
I can't believe this "discussion" is happening. Coon is a racial slur, there is no other use of the word. The fact that a bunch of white Europeans are pointing out that the dozen people involved in this thread aren't offended simply shows the lack of diversity in the mailing list. The "oh I'm butthurt because other people get offended by things" is fucking ridiculous. It is a racial slur, period. If this isn't a library only intended to be used by racist fucks then rename it.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:28 AM, nx <[hidden email]> wrote:
For what it's worth, the first thing I thought of when I saw the title of this thread was "that is a racist slur". I've also never heard anyone call a raccoon a coon.

The news that cowboy was named for "cowboys kill apaches" is disappointing.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:22 AM Fred Hebert <[hidden email]> wrote:
What I'm saying is that it does not matter how I interpret things. I asked and the author said publicly it was a raccoon. I'm okay with that explanation and I'm ready to believe it.

My point is that other people won't ask the author, won't know who he is, and will pick an interpretation and stick with it. They won't need the context, they won't need anything. They'll just do it. The name can be interpreted in a racist way, and so it's pretty much guaranteed that it will be eventually interpreted that way. The author is free to go ahead and keep the name, and the users and onlookers will be free to read whatever they want in that name.

That is 100% my point.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:17 AM, Krzysztof Jurewicz <[hidden email]> wrote:
Fred Hebert writes:

> Anyone is of course free to name their software whatever they want. Picking
> a racist name is however never going to be consequences-free as this e-mail
> thread first shows on the first day of release, and adoption figures may
> also reflect it.

Merriam-Webster online dictionary (naming itself as “America’s most-trusted online dictionary”) says that there two meanings of “coon”:

⒈ raccoon;
⒉ offensive — used as an insulting and contemptuous term for a black person.

I presume that context matters. What makes you think that in this context this word means ⒉? Wikipedia in the article about raccoon says that is also known coloquially as “coon”, so I guess this is not a very uncommon usage.

Or are you saying that non-racist usages of words that have also racist meanings should be eventually abandoned?

(I’m not a native speaker, so bear with my eventual ignorance).

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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Jesper Louis Andersen-2
In reply to this post by Chris Duesing-3
There is also "Maine Coon", which is a cat breed.

Personally, I'd do two things:

1. I'm interested in the etymology of the word in Russian/Ukrainian/Belarussian etc and why that name was chosen in the first place.
2. I'd probably change the name. There is a well known proof assistant named "Coq" (french for "Rooster"). Apart from snickers and giggles, one has to make the case that a certain amount of internationality is to be expected of library names. It simply creates more trouble than it solves.

Of course, the balance is that an innocent western name might really upset the asian population in a major asian country (China, India, Japan, ...), and few people care about this. It is just that Americans tend to self-immolate as soon as you mention their past.



On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 5:52 PM Chris Duesing <[hidden email]> wrote:
I can't believe this "discussion" is happening. Coon is a racial slur, there is no other use of the word. The fact that a bunch of white Europeans are pointing out that the dozen people involved in this thread aren't offended simply shows the lack of diversity in the mailing list. The "oh I'm butthurt because other people get offended by things" is fucking ridiculous. It is a racial slur, period. If this isn't a library only intended to be used by racist fucks then rename it.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:28 AM, nx <[hidden email]> wrote:
For what it's worth, the first thing I thought of when I saw the title of this thread was "that is a racist slur". I've also never heard anyone call a raccoon a coon.

The news that cowboy was named for "cowboys kill apaches" is disappointing.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:22 AM Fred Hebert <[hidden email]> wrote:
What I'm saying is that it does not matter how I interpret things. I asked and the author said publicly it was a raccoon. I'm okay with that explanation and I'm ready to believe it.

My point is that other people won't ask the author, won't know who he is, and will pick an interpretation and stick with it. They won't need the context, they won't need anything. They'll just do it. The name can be interpreted in a racist way, and so it's pretty much guaranteed that it will be eventually interpreted that way. The author is free to go ahead and keep the name, and the users and onlookers will be free to read whatever they want in that name.

That is 100% my point.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:17 AM, Krzysztof Jurewicz <[hidden email]> wrote:
Fred Hebert writes:

> Anyone is of course free to name their software whatever they want. Picking
> a racist name is however never going to be consequences-free as this e-mail
> thread first shows on the first day of release, and adoption figures may
> also reflect it.

Merriam-Webster online dictionary (naming itself as “America’s most-trusted online dictionary”) says that there two meanings of “coon”:

⒈ raccoon;
⒉ offensive — used as an insulting and contemptuous term for a black person.

I presume that context matters. What makes you think that in this context this word means ⒉? Wikipedia in the article about raccoon says that is also known coloquially as “coon”, so I guess this is not a very uncommon usage.

Or are you saying that non-racist usages of words that have also racist meanings should be eventually abandoned?

(I’m not a native speaker, so bear with my eventual ignorance).

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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

zxq9-2
In reply to this post by Chris Duesing-3
On 2018年2月12日月曜日 10時52分22秒 JST Chris Duesing wrote:
> I can't believe this "discussion" is happening. Coon is a racial slur,
> there is no other use of the word. The fact that a bunch of white Europeans
> are pointing out that the dozen people involved in this thread aren't
> offended simply shows the lack of diversity in the mailing list. The "oh
> I'm butthurt because other people get offended by things" is fucking
> ridiculous. It is a racial slur, period. If this isn't a library only
> intended to be used by racist fucks then rename it.

Oh, so since YOU haven't heard it used to refer to "racoon" then your experience is its only meaning?

I grew up in North Texas and Lousiana. I hunted coons for the greater part of my childhood, partly because we could sell the furs and partly because we could eat them (delicious in meat pies, something folks like you actually privileged folk would turn your noses up at). We rarely called them "racoons" because, well, it's a whole extra syllable and we don't like speaking at length so much.

I have not once heard this term used as a racial slur outside of movies, despite having grown up in a part of the U.S. from which the use of this supposed uniform slur originates. Were there racists? Sure. But they had quite distinct terms for ethnically enhanced persons of a desirbable social quality and similarly derives persons of an undesirable social quality -- and the undesirable term was not "coon". Note, by the way, that it was the social quality of the individual to which the reference applied, not the ethnicity.

Whatever you think you know about the American South, you evidently do not.

This entire thread is ridiculous.

-Craig
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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Eric des Courtis-3
In reply to this post by Chris Duesing-3
For what it's worth I didn't know coon was a racial slur. I really assumed it meant raccoon and I am from Ontario Canada.

I don't really care personally if the name gets changed. But judging by how much time has already been wasted discussing this I think it would be wise for the author to change the name. 

It's really sad that we live in a society where people are so sensitive to this. Where I alive I think it is assumed nobody is racist.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:52 AM, Chris Duesing <[hidden email]> wrote:
I can't believe this "discussion" is happening. Coon is a racial slur, there is no other use of the word. The fact that a bunch of white Europeans are pointing out that the dozen people involved in this thread aren't offended simply shows the lack of diversity in the mailing list. The "oh I'm butthurt because other people get offended by things" is fucking ridiculous. It is a racial slur, period. If this isn't a library only intended to be used by racist fucks then rename it.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:28 AM, nx <[hidden email]> wrote:
For what it's worth, the first thing I thought of when I saw the title of this thread was "that is a racist slur". I've also never heard anyone call a raccoon a coon.

The news that cowboy was named for "cowboys kill apaches" is disappointing.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:22 AM Fred Hebert <[hidden email]> wrote:
What I'm saying is that it does not matter how I interpret things. I asked and the author said publicly it was a raccoon. I'm okay with that explanation and I'm ready to believe it.

My point is that other people won't ask the author, won't know who he is, and will pick an interpretation and stick with it. They won't need the context, they won't need anything. They'll just do it. The name can be interpreted in a racist way, and so it's pretty much guaranteed that it will be eventually interpreted that way. The author is free to go ahead and keep the name, and the users and onlookers will be free to read whatever they want in that name.

That is 100% my point.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:17 AM, Krzysztof Jurewicz <[hidden email]> wrote:
Fred Hebert writes:

> Anyone is of course free to name their software whatever they want. Picking
> a racist name is however never going to be consequences-free as this e-mail
> thread first shows on the first day of release, and adoption figures may
> also reflect it.

Merriam-Webster online dictionary (naming itself as “America’s most-trusted online dictionary”) says that there two meanings of “coon”:

⒈ raccoon;
⒉ offensive — used as an insulting and contemptuous term for a black person.

I presume that context matters. What makes you think that in this context this word means ⒉? Wikipedia in the article about raccoon says that is also known coloquially as “coon”, so I guess this is not a very uncommon usage.

Or are you saying that non-racist usages of words that have also racist meanings should be eventually abandoned?

(I’m not a native speaker, so bear with my eventual ignorance).

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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

zxq9-2
On 2018年2月12日月曜日 12時04分22秒 JST Eric des Courtis wrote:
> For what it's worth I didn't know coon was a racial slur. I really assumed
> it meant raccoon and I am from Ontario Canada.
>
> I don't really care personally if the name gets changed. But judging by how
> much time has already been wasted discussing this I think it would be wise
> for the author to change the name.

Indeed.
Aversion is much more rewarding than engagement.
Especially these days.

> It's really sad that we live in a society where people are so sensitive to
> this. Where I alive I think it is assumed nobody is racist.

PING!

There it is, the nail right on the head.

I live in a place where *I* am the one racially disparaged by default. And yet the safest assumption is that MOST people view my work in isolation of my ethnic origin, which so far has been true in every case where it actually mattered at all.

-Craig
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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Tom Santero
In reply to this post by Jesper Louis Andersen-2
Putting the project's name aside for a moment, there are two things I'd like to point about:

1. i would never pull a pre-built binary from a 3rd party into one of my projects. lol security?
2. that this project doesn't address rebar3/relx/hex at all means it is at odds with the direction the community has been pushing toward for several years now, and makes it relatively useless

That said, the name: anyone in North America who reads this immediately thinks of the racist slur, despite intent or cultural differences. if you're an adult in 2018 and can't comprehend that being offended by something and that thing being objectively offensive aren't mutually exclusive then...well I'd suggest you take a good long time to reevaluate everything you've done with your life up until today.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 12:01 PM, Jesper Louis Andersen <[hidden email]> wrote:
There is also "Maine Coon", which is a cat breed.

Personally, I'd do two things:

1. I'm interested in the etymology of the word in Russian/Ukrainian/Belarussian etc and why that name was chosen in the first place.
2. I'd probably change the name. There is a well known proof assistant named "Coq" (french for "Rooster"). Apart from snickers and giggles, one has to make the case that a certain amount of internationality is to be expected of library names. It simply creates more trouble than it solves.

Of course, the balance is that an innocent western name might really upset the asian population in a major asian country (China, India, Japan, ...), and few people care about this. It is just that Americans tend to self-immolate as soon as you mention their past.



On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 5:52 PM Chris Duesing <[hidden email]> wrote:
I can't believe this "discussion" is happening. Coon is a racial slur, there is no other use of the word. The fact that a bunch of white Europeans are pointing out that the dozen people involved in this thread aren't offended simply shows the lack of diversity in the mailing list. The "oh I'm butthurt because other people get offended by things" is fucking ridiculous. It is a racial slur, period. If this isn't a library only intended to be used by racist fucks then rename it.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:28 AM, nx <[hidden email]> wrote:
For what it's worth, the first thing I thought of when I saw the title of this thread was "that is a racist slur". I've also never heard anyone call a raccoon a coon.

The news that cowboy was named for "cowboys kill apaches" is disappointing.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:22 AM Fred Hebert <[hidden email]> wrote:
What I'm saying is that it does not matter how I interpret things. I asked and the author said publicly it was a raccoon. I'm okay with that explanation and I'm ready to believe it.

My point is that other people won't ask the author, won't know who he is, and will pick an interpretation and stick with it. They won't need the context, they won't need anything. They'll just do it. The name can be interpreted in a racist way, and so it's pretty much guaranteed that it will be eventually interpreted that way. The author is free to go ahead and keep the name, and the users and onlookers will be free to read whatever they want in that name.

That is 100% my point.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:17 AM, Krzysztof Jurewicz <[hidden email]> wrote:
Fred Hebert writes:

> Anyone is of course free to name their software whatever they want. Picking
> a racist name is however never going to be consequences-free as this e-mail
> thread first shows on the first day of release, and adoption figures may
> also reflect it.

Merriam-Webster online dictionary (naming itself as “America’s most-trusted online dictionary”) says that there two meanings of “coon”:

⒈ raccoon;
⒉ offensive — used as an insulting and contemptuous term for a black person.

I presume that context matters. What makes you think that in this context this word means ⒉? Wikipedia in the article about raccoon says that is also known coloquially as “coon”, so I guess this is not a very uncommon usage.

Or are you saying that non-racist usages of words that have also racist meanings should be eventually abandoned?

(I’m not a native speaker, so bear with my eventual ignorance).

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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Roman Galeev
In reply to this post by zxq9-2
> I'm interested in the etymology of the word in Russian/Ukrainian/Belarussian etc and why that name was chosen in the first place.

Raccoon in Russian sounds completely different [jenot], coon itself (pronounces as [kun]) is not even a word.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:03 PM, <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 2018年2月12日月曜日 10時52分22秒 JST Chris Duesing wrote:
> I can't believe this "discussion" is happening. Coon is a racial slur,
> there is no other use of the word. The fact that a bunch of white Europeans
> are pointing out that the dozen people involved in this thread aren't
> offended simply shows the lack of diversity in the mailing list. The "oh
> I'm butthurt because other people get offended by things" is fucking
> ridiculous. It is a racial slur, period. If this isn't a library only
> intended to be used by racist fucks then rename it.

Oh, so since YOU haven't heard it used to refer to "racoon" then your experience is its only meaning?

I grew up in North Texas and Lousiana. I hunted coons for the greater part of my childhood, partly because we could sell the furs and partly because we could eat them (delicious in meat pies, something folks like you actually privileged folk would turn your noses up at). We rarely called them "racoons" because, well, it's a whole extra syllable and we don't like speaking at length so much.

I have not once heard this term used as a racial slur outside of movies, despite having grown up in a part of the U.S. from which the use of this supposed uniform slur originates. Were there racists? Sure. But they had quite distinct terms for ethnically enhanced persons of a desirbable social quality and similarly derives persons of an undesirable social quality -- and the undesirable term was not "coon". Note, by the way, that it was the social quality of the individual to which the reference applied, not the ethnicity.

Whatever you think you know about the American South, you evidently do not.

This entire thread is ridiculous.

-Craig
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--
With best regards,
     Roman Galeev,
     +420 702 817 968

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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

zxq9-2
In reply to this post by Tom Santero
On 2018年2月12日月曜日 12時10分20秒 JST Tom Santero wrote:
> Putting the project's name aside for a moment, there are two things I'd
> like to point about:

THANK YOU

> 1. i would never pull a pre-built binary from a 3rd party into one of my
> projects. lol security?

I disagree, in that we are right back in "trusting trust" territory. I prefer building from source (for a number of reasons) but source or not, for nearly everyone (perhaps actually everyone) who builds a project that involves external dependencies, the security is only as strong as the signature on the code received (and implicitly, the trust of the signature scheme employed) and the trust of the review process which granted the signature.

Both are greviously lacking in using direct-from-github packages (whether source or pre-built) as repository inputs.

> 2. that this project doesn't address rebar3/relx/hex at all means it is at
> odds with the direction the community has been pushing toward for several
> years now, and makes it relatively useless

I disagree again. In this era we have full-blown systems to drive; the common case today is NOT to deploy to a resource-strapped or custom-built piece of hardware that can never be accessed by system administrators. The common environment today is more like a (to use an awful term) "devops" environment where people want things to rebuild in the lightest possible way and "just go". Which is to say, people desperately wish that Erlang (not to mention Elixir) code could be more commonly built and run the way Python projects that use virtualenv can be.

I think the to-date direction of the Erlang community de facto practices is a bit dated, being built around the ancient and original assumption "everything has to be an Erlang distribution".

-Craig
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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Rick Pettit
In reply to this post by Loïc Hoguin-3
As someone who lives in North America, I wouldn’t be terribly excited about the idea of advocating for a piece of software with such a controversial name, to put it mildly.

I have no doubt it would take more work defending the software and explaining the name than it would be to write my own package manager.

I also cannot imagine what a “hero” some of my coworkers (many of which I consider to be close friends) would consider me to be, enabling folks to casually throw out what many know to be a racial slur around the office without fear of consequences.

Of course I could always throw the “intent” argument out there, which would no doubt immediately clear up the optics and melt away all the negative feelings...

Boy this better be one hell of a package manager to be worth all that trouble.

-Rick

> On Feb 12, 2018, at 8:04 AM, Loïc Hoguin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> More importantly, who is aware of them? I doubt too many people outside of North America know about it.
>
> And secondly, should you censor a word that's otherwise perfectly fine because of its use in slang? It'll get some radical activists angry for sure so it depends on whether you see this as a good or a bad thing. Nowadays that tends to be a good thing.
>
> Most people will not think twice about it.
>
> On 02/12/2018 02:17 PM, Fred Hebert wrote:
>> Are you aware of the connotations coming with that name?
>> On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 4:05 PM, Valery Tikhonov <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>    Hi,
>>    I would like to introduce Сoon <https://github.com/comtihon/coon> -
>>    build and dependency management system and tool for easy deployment
>>    Erlang packages.
>>    In short:
>>      * coon uses prebuilt packages from CoonHub
>>        <https://coon.justtech.blog>, what reduces build time
>>      * thanks to github integration it allows to trigger new builds for
>>        Erlang packages when commiting new tag in repo
>>      * you can set installation steps to deploy and run Erlang service
>>        from prebuilt package on system without otp/Erlang installed
>>        with `coon install namespace/name`
>>    Documentation, articles and links:
>>    coon (client) - https://github.com/comtihon/coon
>>    <https://github.com/comtihon/coon> see Readme.md and doc folder
>>    coon_auto_builder (server) -
>>    https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder
>>    <https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder>
>>    how to create and build Erlang service from scratch
>>    https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/
>>    <https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/>
>>    how to prepare Erlang service for deploy
>>    https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/
>>    <https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/>
>>    example service which uses coon
>>    https://github.com/comtihon/example_service
>>    <https://github.com/comtihon/example_service>
>>    example library which uses coon
>>    https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang
>>    <https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang>
>>    Hope you find this tool useful :)
>>    _______________________________________________
>>    erlang-questions mailing list
>>    [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>    http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
>>    <http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions>
>> _______________________________________________
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>
> --
> Loïc Hoguin
> https://ninenines.eu
> _______________________________________________
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>
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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Joe Armstrong-2
In reply to this post by zxq9-2
Goodness - what a lot of mails.

When choosing a name the following algorithm is used by many
organisations and people

    1) Choose a name
    2) Check in all known languages if this might offend someone
        if it does goto 1)

(There are even companies you can hire that do this, if it's a big product)

If I wrote some software I would like it to be discussed for the right
reasons, which are

    - it is useful
    - it is beautiful
    - it solves some interesting problem
    - it raises and solves some interesting problem

I would not like it to be discussed for my skills in naming the damn code.

I have said on many occasions that code should be named by the SHA1 checksum of
the content - as far as I know this would not offend people - apart
from those who
thought the name could be a tad simpler.

If you choose the wrong name you can accidentally offend people, even if this
is not your intention - offending people has consequences.

Cheers

/Joe




On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:28 PM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 2018年2月12日月曜日 12時10分20秒 JST Tom Santero wrote:
>> Putting the project's name aside for a moment, there are two things I'd
>> like to point about:
>
> THANK YOU
>
>> 1. i would never pull a pre-built binary from a 3rd party into one of my
>> projects. lol security?
>
> I disagree, in that we are right back in "trusting trust" territory. I prefer building from source (for a number of reasons) but source or not, for nearly everyone (perhaps actually everyone) who builds a project that involves external dependencies, the security is only as strong as the signature on the code received (and implicitly, the trust of the signature scheme employed) and the trust of the review process which granted the signature.
>
> Both are greviously lacking in using direct-from-github packages (whether source or pre-built) as repository inputs.
>
>> 2. that this project doesn't address rebar3/relx/hex at all means it is at
>> odds with the direction the community has been pushing toward for several
>> years now, and makes it relatively useless
>
> I disagree again. In this era we have full-blown systems to drive; the common case today is NOT to deploy to a resource-strapped or custom-built piece of hardware that can never be accessed by system administrators. The common environment today is more like a (to use an awful term) "devops" environment where people want things to rebuild in the lightest possible way and "just go". Which is to say, people desperately wish that Erlang (not to mention Elixir) code could be more commonly built and run the way Python projects that use virtualenv can be.
>
> I think the to-date direction of the Erlang community de facto practices is a bit dated, being built around the ancient and original assumption "everything has to be an Erlang distribution".
>
> -Craig
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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Andy Till
In reply to this post by Fred Hebert-2

This term is absolutely a racist term and it is widely known in the UK and US. It was used in an awful BBC sitcom in the 60s and 70s.

For people citing dictionaries, the racist meaning is the second most common. Surely that is enough? If the dictionary writer had been affected by it they may have put it first any way.

Arguing that it negatively affects *only* a minority of people, is kind of the point of racism.

I'd be mortified if I found that I had done misunderstood a name like this, and would take it down.

On 12/02/2018 13:17, Fred Hebert wrote:
Are you aware of the connotations coming with that name?

On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 4:05 PM, Valery Tikhonov <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,
I would like to introduce Сoon - build and dependency management system and tool for easy deployment Erlang packages.
In short:
  • coon uses prebuilt packages from CoonHub, what reduces build time
  • thanks to github integration it allows to trigger new builds for Erlang packages when commiting new tag in repo
  • you can set installation steps to deploy and run Erlang service from prebuilt package on system without otp/Erlang installed with `coon install namespace/name`

Documentation, articles and links:

coon (client) - https://github.com/comtihon/coon see Readme.md and doc folder

coon_auto_builder (server) - https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder

how to create and build Erlang service from scratch https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/

how to prepare Erlang service for deploy https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/

example service which uses coon https://github.com/comtihon/example_service

example library which uses coon https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang

Hope you find this tool useful :)




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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Loïc Hoguin-3
In reply to this post by Fred Hebert-2
On 02/12/2018 05:13 PM, Fred Hebert wrote:> Loic can correct me if he's
wrong, but his /Cowboy/ web server took its
> initial name because /cowboys kill apaches/ if I recall old conference
> conversations. I think it's of poor taste, but so far Loic has not had
> any fall out or enough offended people to make any change, and he did
> build a successful business out of it. He made the call and ran with it.

Oversimplified of course but true. Context is important though, my
knowledge of cowboys mostly comes from Lucky Luke and a few farwest
movies, so the inspiration is fictional.

Nobody has had any problem with it.

--
Loïc Hoguin
https://ninenines.eu
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