Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Tom Santero

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 1:02 PM, Loïc Hoguin <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 02/12/2018 05:13 PM, Fred Hebert wrote:> Loic can correct me if he's wrong, but his /Cowboy/ web server took its
initial name because /cowboys kill apaches/ if I recall old conference conversations. I think it's of poor taste, but so far Loic has not had any fall out or enough offended people to make any change, and he did build a successful business out of it. He made the call and ran with it.

Oversimplified of course but true. Context is important though, my knowledge of cowboys mostly comes from Lucky Luke and a few farwest movies, so the inspiration is fictional.

Nobody has had any problem with it.

Actually, plenty of us have had a problem with it for a long time Loic. Those of us who knew the origin. The term cowboy absent your naming context is of course innocuous, which might explain why it's coasted under the radar for so long without having been called out; in context, it is disappointing.

 


--
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https://ninenines.eu
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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Charles Hixson-2
In reply to this post by Chris Waymire

I'm sorry, but "coon" was definitely a pejorative term during *my* childhood.  I'm not a part of the affected group, but it is certainly one of the strongly associated meanings that attach to it in my mind.  Use a word meaning the same animal from a different language.   Or spell out the name in full.  Or name it after someone's pet raccoon.  Or just change it.  There's no downside to changing it, and there is a downside to keeping it.  I don't know how strong a downside, but it's better to avoid any.


On 02/12/2018 07:11 AM, Chris Waymire wrote:
The idea that a software library that happens to share name with a racial slur that is over 180 years old and has not been part of common social use for several decades would make people angry is ridiculous. Especially when the word as meanings that pre-date the slur. If that upsets you to the point where you are unable to get past it then it is time to unplug your tv, your radio and your internet and live a life of peaceful solitude.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 7:03 AM, Loïc Hoguin <[hidden email]> wrote:
This idea that white supremacists need a reason to call others using racial slurs is ridiculous at best. At this rate you will call me a Nazi by the next reply. Fingers crossed.

Again Valery does not apply this term to black people or make any reference about them or the US History, so there's no intent here. He's using the other meaning.

Soon you will argue that hunters are racists because they call racoons "coons".


On 02/12/2018 03:53 PM, Josh Barney wrote:
Intent IS important and the intent of the people who applied this term to black people was a very bad intent.

?People are getting offended much too easily these days? ? this argument has been plastered all over American news for years, always coming from a privileged group claiming hurt. This is the white supremesist position.


On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:34 AM Lo?c Hoguin <[hidden email]> wrote:

    This reminds me of people who were calling some coffee brand racist not
    realizing that the Spanish or Portuguese translation for "black"
    looks a
    lot like a racist slur.

    People are getting offended much too easily these days. Intent is
    important and there's no intent to slur here.

    On 02/12/2018 03:15 PM, Josh Barney wrote:
     > One would presume that all the black persons who have been called
    in an
     > effort to reduce them to rabid animals hunted for sport by white men
     > with dogs would be aware. That?s the import thing about racial
    slurs,
     > not that you are unhurt, but that someone else is hurt.
     >
     > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:04 AM Lo?c Hoguin <[hidden email]>
    wrote:
     >
     > More importantly, who is aware of them? I doubt too many people
    outside
     > of North America know about it.
     >
     > And secondly, should you censor a word that's otherwise perfectly
    fine
     > because of its use in slang? It'll get some radical activists
    angry for
     > sure so it depends on whether you see this as a good or a bad thing.
     > Nowadays that tends to be a good thing.
     >
     > Most people will not think twice about it.
     >
     > On 02/12/2018 02:17 PM, Fred Hebert wrote:
     > > Are you aware of the connotations coming with that name?
     > >
     > > On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 4:05 PM, Valery Tikhonov
     > > <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
     > wrote:
     > >
     > > Hi,
     > > I would like to introduce ?oon
    <https://github.com/comtihon/coon> -
     > > build and dependency management system and tool for easy
    deployment
     > > Erlang packages.
     > > In short:
     > >
     > > * coon uses prebuilt packages from CoonHub
     > > <https://coon.justtech.blog>, what reduces build time
     > > * thanks to github integration it allows to trigger new builds for
     > > Erlang packages when commiting new tag in repo
     > > * you can set installation steps to deploy and run Erlang service
     > > from prebuilt package on system without otp/Erlang installed
     > > with `coon install namespace/name`
     > >
     > > Documentation, articles and links:
     > >
     > > coon (client) - https://github.com/comtihon/coon
     > > <https://github.com/comtihon/coon> see Readme.md and doc folder
     > >
     > > coon_auto_builder (server) -
     > > https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder
     > > <https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder>
     > >
     > > how to create and build Erlang service from scratch
     > > https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/
     > >
    <https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/>
     > >
     > > how to prepare Erlang service for deploy
     > >
     >
    https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/
     > >
     >
    <https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/>

     > >
     > > example service which uses coon
     > > https://github.com/comtihon/example_service
     > > <https://github.com/comtihon/example_service>
     > >
     > > example library which uses coon
     > > https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang
     > > <https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang>
     > >
     > > Hope you find this tool useful :)
     > >
     > >
     > >
     > >
     > > _______________________________________________
     > > erlang-questions mailing list
     > > [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
     > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
     > > <http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions>
     > >
     > >
     > >
     > >
     > > _______________________________________________
     > > erlang-questions mailing list
     > > [hidden email]
     > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
     > >
     >
     > --
     > Lo?c Hoguin
     > https://ninenines.eu
     > _______________________________________________
     > erlang-questions mailing list
     > [hidden email]
     > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
     >

    --     Lo?c Hoguin
    https://ninenines.eu


--
Loïc Hoguin

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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Charles Hixson-2
In reply to this post by Russell Brown-3

Well, it really depends on how long the library has had that name.  I never expected the gimp people to change the name of their program when it was pointed out that some might find the name offensive...but it has retarded the success of the project significantly, and kept it out of at least two businesses that I know of.  Recently they've started altering the display so that is doesn't say "The Gimp" but now says "The GNU Image Manipulation Program" on the startup screen.  That's what "The Gimp" always stood for, but now they've altered the startup screen to make the name less blatant...because some people *were* offended, and because businesses didn't want to risk offending customers.

I wouldn't avoid using the library because of the name, but I might well avoid mentioning it to others.


On 02/12/2018 08:58 AM, Russell Brown wrote:
Tristan is right. This really is awful. I can’t believe there’s even an argument. If someone emailed me to tell me that my library's name was offensive, I’d apologises and change it. Maybe that’s just me. I think this case is indefensible. And those who ask that we _not talk about it_ but instead talk about the technical merits, no.

If there’s a commercial entity associated with this I hope they act soon.

I need to use erlang for my work, please don’t stick with this name. I don’t want to be in anyway even tangentially associated with it. Does github not have some policy about this repo name, also?

On 12 Feb 2018, at 17:16, Tristan Sloughter [hidden email] wrote:

This is awful. But sadly not surprising. Intent only matters in the sense the author is not at fault. Intent does not matter when it comes to whether or not you want to not push people away.

For those who don't care what I or Fred say since we are white, it is easy enough to go ask Black developers in North American. 

-- 
 Tristan Sloughter
 "I am not a crackpot" - Abe Simpson
 [hidden email]

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018, at 7:29 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
On 2018年2月12日月曜日 10時16分51秒 JST Fred Hebert wrote:
Intent does not matter.
No.

Fred, I have enormous respect for you and have gone several rounds with 
you on several subjects, each time having learned something for my own 
part. On technical subjects, anyway.

But... INTENT

You are demonstraby wrong already. Just stop. You will not win against 
the weight of history.

This is becoming some SJW ridiculousness already, not because you care 
about that but because of the ambient temperature. I know SJW flippancy 
is not your intent, but that is the only place this winds up going these 
days. That is not a small failure -- it quickly becomes a systemic one, 
not just in a concurrent software system of ephemeral importance, but a 
concrete socio-economic one of critical importance that pays for all the 
other parties we enjoy.

Riddle me this:
If we cannot undersand enough about the software systems that WE WRITE 
OURSELVES that we need the "let it crash" mentality, how is it that we 
somehow understand to a manifest degree the economic and social value 
systems (which are profoundly more complex than our petty software 
systems) that we can dictate value within them? By what restart 
mechanism is this all brought back to a "reasonble default"?

I am sincerely desirous of an answer here, because I have a profound 
respect for your intellect but cannot imagine that you have properly 
considered the alternatives or where this path of discourse winds up 
eventualy going.

-Craig
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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Antonio SJ Musumeci
"retarded"

Poor word choice given the thread topic.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 1:38 PM, Charles Hixson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Well, it really depends on how long the library has had that name.  I never expected the gimp people to change the name of their program when it was pointed out that some might find the name offensive...but it has retarded the success of the project significantly, and kept it out of at least two businesses that I know of.  Recently they've started altering the display so that is doesn't say "The Gimp" but now says "The GNU Image Manipulation Program" on the startup screen.  That's what "The Gimp" always stood for, but now they've altered the startup screen to make the name less blatant...because some people *were* offended, and because businesses didn't want to risk offending customers.

I wouldn't avoid using the library because of the name, but I might well avoid mentioning it to others.


On 02/12/2018 08:58 AM, Russell Brown wrote:
Tristan is right. This really is awful. I can’t believe there’s even an argument. If someone emailed me to tell me that my library's name was offensive, I’d apologises and change it. Maybe that’s just me. I think this case is indefensible. And those who ask that we _not talk about it_ but instead talk about the technical merits, no.

If there’s a commercial entity associated with this I hope they act soon.

I need to use erlang for my work, please don’t stick with this name. I don’t want to be in anyway even tangentially associated with it. Does github not have some policy about this repo name, also?

On 12 Feb 2018, at 17:16, Tristan Sloughter [hidden email] wrote:

This is awful. But sadly not surprising. Intent only matters in the sense the author is not at fault. Intent does not matter when it comes to whether or not you want to not push people away.

For those who don't care what I or Fred say since we are white, it is easy enough to go ask Black developers in North American. 

-- 
 Tristan Sloughter
 "I am not a crackpot" - Abe Simpson
 [hidden email]

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018, at 7:29 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
On 2018年2月12日月曜日 10時16分51秒 JST Fred Hebert wrote:
Intent does not matter.
No.

Fred, I have enormous respect for you and have gone several rounds with 
you on several subjects, each time having learned something for my own 
part. On technical subjects, anyway.

But... INTENT

You are demonstraby wrong already. Just stop. You will not win against 
the weight of history.

This is becoming some SJW ridiculousness already, not because you care 
about that but because of the ambient temperature. I know SJW flippancy 
is not your intent, but that is the only place this winds up going these 
days. That is not a small failure -- it quickly becomes a systemic one, 
not just in a concurrent software system of ephemeral importance, but a 
concrete socio-economic one of critical importance that pays for all the 
other parties we enjoy.

Riddle me this:
If we cannot undersand enough about the software systems that WE WRITE 
OURSELVES that we need the "let it crash" mentality, how is it that we 
somehow understand to a manifest degree the economic and social value 
systems (which are profoundly more complex than our petty software 
systems) that we can dictate value within them? By what restart 
mechanism is this all brought back to a "reasonble default"?

I am sincerely desirous of an answer here, because I have a profound 
respect for your intellect but cannot imagine that you have properly 
considered the alternatives or where this path of discourse winds up 
eventualy going.

-Craig
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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Charles Hixson-2
In reply to this post by Chris Duesing-3

"Coon" is often used as a shortened name for the animal.  If you can definitely tell from context that that is what is meant, it isn't (usually) seen as a racial slur.  But you do need to know your audience.  If you don't, it's almost certain that a major fraction of them will consider the slur as a plausible meaning.  And that's when the context implies that you mean "raccoon".


On 02/12/2018 08:52 AM, Chris Duesing wrote:
I can't believe this "discussion" is happening. Coon is a racial slur, there is no other use of the word. The fact that a bunch of white Europeans are pointing out that the dozen people involved in this thread aren't offended simply shows the lack of diversity in the mailing list. The "oh I'm butthurt because other people get offended by things" is fucking ridiculous. It is a racial slur, period. If this isn't a library only intended to be used by racist fucks then rename it.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:28 AM, nx <[hidden email]> wrote:
For what it's worth, the first thing I thought of when I saw the title of this thread was "that is a racist slur". I've also never heard anyone call a raccoon a coon.

The news that cowboy was named for "cowboys kill apaches" is disappointing.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:22 AM Fred Hebert <[hidden email]> wrote:
What I'm saying is that it does not matter how I interpret things. I asked and the author said publicly it was a raccoon. I'm okay with that explanation and I'm ready to believe it.

My point is that other people won't ask the author, won't know who he is, and will pick an interpretation and stick with it. They won't need the context, they won't need anything. They'll just do it. The name can be interpreted in a racist way, and so it's pretty much guaranteed that it will be eventually interpreted that way. The author is free to go ahead and keep the name, and the users and onlookers will be free to read whatever they want in that name.

That is 100% my point.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:17 AM, Krzysztof Jurewicz <[hidden email]> wrote:
Fred Hebert writes:

> Anyone is of course free to name their software whatever they want. Picking
> a racist name is however never going to be consequences-free as this e-mail
> thread first shows on the first day of release, and adoption figures may
> also reflect it.

Merriam-Webster online dictionary (naming itself as “America’s most-trusted online dictionary”) says that there two meanings of “coon”:

⒈ raccoon;
⒉ offensive — used as an insulting and contemptuous term for a black person.

I presume that context matters. What makes you think that in this context this word means ⒉? Wikipedia in the article about raccoon says that is also known coloquially as “coon”, so I guess this is not a very uncommon usage.

Or are you saying that non-racist usages of words that have also racist meanings should be eventually abandoned?

(I’m not a native speaker, so bear with my eventual ignorance).

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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Charles Hixson-2
In reply to this post by Joe Armstrong-2
Did you ever read how much Exxon paid to find a name that wasn't taken
and wasn't objectionable?  Whee!  I was shocked.  (I couldn't find a
link for it in a short Google search, and I don't remember the exact
figure, but it was more than the cost of the most recently built college
dorm.)

But it's also true that it's important that a name be easily memorable,
which lets out the SHA-1 choice...though that makes a good unique
identifier.

Picking a good name is hard.  But to me this doesn't seem a wise choice.

On 02/12/2018 09:58 AM, Joe Armstrong wrote:

> Goodness - what a lot of mails.
>
> When choosing a name the following algorithm is used by many
> organisations and people
>
>      1) Choose a name
>      2) Check in all known languages if this might offend someone
>          if it does goto 1)
>
> (There are even companies you can hire that do this, if it's a big product)
>
> If I wrote some software I would like it to be discussed for the right
> reasons, which are
>
>      - it is useful
>      - it is beautiful
>      - it solves some interesting problem
>      - it raises and solves some interesting problem
>
> I would not like it to be discussed for my skills in naming the damn code.
>
> I have said on many occasions that code should be named by the SHA1 checksum of
> the content - as far as I know this would not offend people - apart
> from those who
> thought the name could be a tad simpler.
>
> If you choose the wrong name you can accidentally offend people, even if this
> is not your intention - offending people has consequences.
>
> Cheers
>
> /Joe
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:28 PM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 2018年2月12日月曜日 12時10分20秒 JST Tom Santero wrote:
>>> Putting the project's name aside for a moment, there are two things I'd
>>> like to point about:
>> THANK YOU
>>
>>> 1. i would never pull a pre-built binary from a 3rd party into one of my
>>> projects. lol security?
>> I disagree, in that we are right back in "trusting trust" territory. I prefer building from source (for a number of reasons) but source or not, for nearly everyone (perhaps actually everyone) who builds a project that involves external dependencies, the security is only as strong as the signature on the code received (and implicitly, the trust of the signature scheme employed) and the trust of the review process which granted the signature.
>>
>> Both are greviously lacking in using direct-from-github packages (whether source or pre-built) as repository inputs.
>>
>>> 2. that this project doesn't address rebar3/relx/hex at all means it is at
>>> odds with the direction the community has been pushing toward for several
>>> years now, and makes it relatively useless
>> I disagree again. In this era we have full-blown systems to drive; the common case today is NOT to deploy to a resource-strapped or custom-built piece of hardware that can never be accessed by system administrators. The common environment today is more like a (to use an awful term) "devops" environment where people want things to rebuild in the lightest possible way and "just go". Which is to say, people desperately wish that Erlang (not to mention Elixir) code could be more commonly built and run the way Python projects that use virtualenv can be.
>>
>> I think the to-date direction of the Erlang community de facto practices is a bit dated, being built around the ancient and original assumption "everything has to be an Erlang distribution".
>>
>> -Craig
>> _______________________________________________
>> erlang-questions mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Loïc Hoguin-3
In reply to this post by Tom Santero
On 02/12/2018 07:10 PM, Tom Santero wrote:

>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 1:02 PM, Loïc Hoguin <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     On 02/12/2018 05:13 PM, Fred Hebert wrote:> Loic can correct me if
>     he's wrong, but his /Cowboy/ web server took its
>
>         initial name because /cowboys kill apaches/ if I recall old
>         conference conversations. I think it's of poor taste, but so far
>         Loic has not had any fall out or enough offended people to make
>         any change, and he did build a successful business out of it. He
>         made the call and ran with it.
>
>
>     Oversimplified of course but true. Context is important though, my
>     knowledge of cowboys mostly comes from Lucky Luke and a few farwest
>     movies, so the inspiration is fictional.
>
>     Nobody has had any problem with it.
>
>
> Actually, plenty of us have had a problem with it for a long time Loic.
> Those of us who knew the origin. The term cowboy absent your naming
> context is of course innocuous, which might explain why it's coasted
> under the radar for so long without having been called out; in context,
> it is disappointing.

If ignorance is disappointing then so be it. But in that case you must
be horrified at a lot of western related entertainment products.
Watching kids play "cowboys and indians" must be truly heartbreaking too.

I grew up with Lucky Luke, Tintin, Asterix and other fictions. Cowboy
comes from there. Sure some of the stories raise some eyebrows today
(Tintin in the Congo is particularly infamous, and it's especially
telling that it hadn't been translated to English for so long despite
being translated everywhere else), but that doesn't make the people who
enjoy them whatever *ist some want them to be.

Ignorance of US history is to be expected of non-US people. The same
applies everywhere. You can't really expect a single developer to know
all the intricacies of all existing *and future* cultures and languages.
Culture changes fast enough that you might see otherwise normal words
become slur within your lifetime.

According to some people, and I'm no expert, Thanksgiving originates
with the genocide of native Americans. Should Thanksgiving be dropped
because of its origins? Clearly some people are offended by it,
otherwise I wouldn't have heard of this from faraway lands. Still I
don't think the people celebrating Thanksgiving today are celebrating
genocide. In the same vein, me naming a project after fictional stories
does not make me side with anyone in historical events.

Finally, the origin of a name is one thing, its use another. Sure that's
how the idea came to me, remembering fictional stories and naming the
project after them. But that's not how it's been used since. The process
for coming up with the name is irrelevant, just as the history behind a
practice is irrelevant to how it's practiced today. What matters is how
things are today, and today the western theme is just that, a theme.

And just to complete the story behind the Cowboy name: I initially
thought of using the name of a tribe but because there was already a
number of them in use in software projects, including the Apache and
Cherokee HTTP servers, and I was not familiar with the others, I decided
against it. So we came real close of having the name being the same as a
native American tribe. Maybe later.

Cheers,

--
Loïc Hoguin
https://ninenines.eu
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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Stefan Strigler-3
There's a difference between making a mistake and refusing to learn from them once pointed out.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 8:14 PM Loïc Hoguin <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 02/12/2018 07:10 PM, Tom Santero wrote:
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 1:02 PM, Loïc Hoguin <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     On 02/12/2018 05:13 PM, Fred Hebert wrote:> Loic can correct me if
>     he's wrong, but his /Cowboy/ web server took its
>
>         initial name because /cowboys kill apaches/ if I recall old
>         conference conversations. I think it's of poor taste, but so far
>         Loic has not had any fall out or enough offended people to make
>         any change, and he did build a successful business out of it. He
>         made the call and ran with it.
>
>
>     Oversimplified of course but true. Context is important though, my
>     knowledge of cowboys mostly comes from Lucky Luke and a few farwest
>     movies, so the inspiration is fictional.
>
>     Nobody has had any problem with it.
>
>
> Actually, plenty of us have had a problem with it for a long time Loic.
> Those of us who knew the origin. The term cowboy absent your naming
> context is of course innocuous, which might explain why it's coasted
> under the radar for so long without having been called out; in context,
> it is disappointing.

If ignorance is disappointing then so be it. But in that case you must
be horrified at a lot of western related entertainment products.
Watching kids play "cowboys and indians" must be truly heartbreaking too.

I grew up with Lucky Luke, Tintin, Asterix and other fictions. Cowboy
comes from there. Sure some of the stories raise some eyebrows today
(Tintin in the Congo is particularly infamous, and it's especially
telling that it hadn't been translated to English for so long despite
being translated everywhere else), but that doesn't make the people who
enjoy them whatever *ist some want them to be.

Ignorance of US history is to be expected of non-US people. The same
applies everywhere. You can't really expect a single developer to know
all the intricacies of all existing *and future* cultures and languages.
Culture changes fast enough that you might see otherwise normal words
become slur within your lifetime.

According to some people, and I'm no expert, Thanksgiving originates
with the genocide of native Americans. Should Thanksgiving be dropped
because of its origins? Clearly some people are offended by it,
otherwise I wouldn't have heard of this from faraway lands. Still I
don't think the people celebrating Thanksgiving today are celebrating
genocide. In the same vein, me naming a project after fictional stories
does not make me side with anyone in historical events.

Finally, the origin of a name is one thing, its use another. Sure that's
how the idea came to me, remembering fictional stories and naming the
project after them. But that's not how it's been used since. The process
for coming up with the name is irrelevant, just as the history behind a
practice is irrelevant to how it's practiced today. What matters is how
things are today, and today the western theme is just that, a theme.

And just to complete the story behind the Cowboy name: I initially
thought of using the name of a tribe but because there was already a
number of them in use in software projects, including the Apache and
Cherokee HTTP servers, and I was not familiar with the others, I decided
against it. So we came real close of having the name being the same as a
native American tribe. Maybe later.

Cheers,

--
Loïc Hoguin
https://ninenines.eu
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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Jesper Louis Andersen-2
In reply to this post by Joe Armstrong-2
On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:58 PM Joe Armstrong <[hidden email]> wrote:

I have said on many occasions that code should be named by the SHA1 checksum of
the content - as far as I know this would not offend people - apart
from those who
thought the name could be a tad simpler.


I might have said this before, but here goes:

Using a cryptographic checksum for a package and then pointing the name to the checksum would have saved Node.js npm package manager a lot of headaches when people remove, rename or otherwise destroy packages.

It also allows you to comply with legal requests with a sunset period. As in "I hear you, and the name will be given to you. But we give people 6 months time to upgrade before we remove the old checksummed packages".

I'm interested in why someone did not try this yet. Or if one tried, why it didn't work out. It seems very obvious to build a content-addressable-store for your packages.

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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Vlad Dumitrescu-2

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:06 PM, Jesper Louis Andersen <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:58 PM Joe Armstrong <[hidden email]> wrote:

I have said on many occasions that code should be named by the SHA1 checksum of
the content - as far as I know this would not offend people - apart
from those who thought the name could be a tad simpler.


I might have said this before, but here goes:
Using a cryptographic checksum for a package and then pointing the name to the checksum would have saved Node.js npm package manager a lot of headaches when people remove, rename or otherwise destroy packages.
It also allows you to comply with legal requests with a sunset period. As in "I hear you, and the name will be given to you. But we give people 6 months time to upgrade before we remove the old checksummed packages".
I'm interested in why someone did not try this yet. Or if one tried, why it didn't work out. It seems very obvious to build a content-addressable-store for your packages.

I'm not sure I understand this completely. Using the checksum of a package as identifier is IMHO only useful if it is used in the dependencies list of other packages. If the deps list uses names (and people will use names anyway, not checksums), then the problem remains that in case a package is renamed and another one reuses the name, we don't know to which one a reference points. 

Anyway, hex.pm has a field named "checksum" and it is that value that is stored in rebar.lock. So the hash key is there, but I don't see how it is useful except for tools. 

best regards,
Vlad


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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Lloyd R. Prentice-2
In reply to this post by Jesper Louis Andersen-2
Hello,

Jesper and Joe do make good sense to me. 

And, more, I would like to see much more informed debate on the technical merits of this new tool.

As aside, however, I haven’t seen so much activity on this list since I first subscribed some four years ago. 

Note that we haven’t heard from any North American black Erlang programmers on this list. Why would that be?

I’m a privileged, white (so far as I know from my spotty genealogy, although the recent work on the Chadwick man casts some doubt), provincial North American male. 

Some in my genetic/gender/national cohort feel that our group is being grievously discriminated against. I don’t happen to feel so for plenty of socio-economic reasons.

Nevertheless, the name of this new tool did seem unfortunate in the extreme to me. Were my skin black, from everything I know, I would definitely feel a twinge of pain and resentment every time one of the many words used historically to define me as less than a respected human being was tossed around in casual conversation.

But some on this list are correct. One can be overly sensitive and some groups do exploit these sensitivities for politely advantage. 

Nevertheless, we must acknowledge that naming of software packages in these times has many cross-cultural implications.

For us, that is the Erlang community, the big question is how can we learn and grow together regardless of our respective cultural heritages? How can we minimize the contentious bickering and trolling that has infected so much discourse across the web?

Tribalism is a reality in our world. Every tribe has its own taboos, sensitivities, and moral blind spots.

But our world is ever more interconnected and interdependent. Empathy and respect for the feelings of others can go a long way toward reducing the friction of cross-cultural exchange. As can respectful discussion of differences.

For me, this thread reinforces my belief in this principle.

All the best,

LRP


Sent from my iPad

On Feb 12, 2018, at 3:06 PM, Jesper Louis Andersen <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:58 PM Joe Armstrong <[hidden email]> wrote:

I have said on many occasions that code should be named by the SHA1 checksum of
the content - as far as I know this would not offend people - apart
from those who
thought the name could be a tad simpler.


I might have said this before, but here goes:

Using a cryptographic checksum for a package and then pointing the name to the checksum would have saved Node.js npm package manager a lot of headaches when people remove, rename or otherwise destroy packages.

It also allows you to comply with legal requests with a sunset period. As in "I hear you, and the name will be given to you. But we give people 6 months time to upgrade before we remove the old checksummed packages".

I'm interested in why someone did not try this yet. Or if one tried, why it didn't work out. It seems very obvious to build a content-addressable-store for your packages.
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Sent from my iPad

On Feb 12, 2018, at 3:06 PM, Jesper Louis Andersen <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:58 PM Joe Armstrong <[hidden email]> wrote:

I have said on many occasions that code should be named by the SHA1 checksum of
the content - as far as I know this would not offend people - apart
from those who
thought the name could be a tad simpler.


I might have said this before, but here goes:

Using a cryptographic checksum for a package and then pointing the name to the checksum would have saved Node.js npm package manager a lot of headaches when people remove, rename or otherwise destroy packages.

It also allows you to comply with legal requests with a sunset period. As in "I hear you, and the name will be given to you. But we give people 6 months time to upgrade before we remove the old checksummed packages".

I'm interested in why someone did not try this yet. Or if one tried, why it didn't work out. It seems very obvious to build a content-addressable-store for your packages.
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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Miguel Morales
I'm a hispanic developer in North America. This name is certainly offensive. I'm a big proponent of free speech and am against overreaching social justice causes. 
However, in this case, if you want the project to succeed I highly recommend changing the name.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 1:35 PM, Lloyd R. Prentice <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello,

Jesper and Joe do make good sense to me. 

And, more, I would like to see much more informed debate on the technical merits of this new tool.

As aside, however, I haven’t seen so much activity on this list since I first subscribed some four years ago. 

Note that we haven’t heard from any North American black Erlang programmers on this list. Why would that be?

I’m a privileged, white (so far as I know from my spotty genealogy, although the recent work on the Chadwick man casts some doubt), provincial North American male. 

Some in my genetic/gender/national cohort feel that our group is being grievously discriminated against. I don’t happen to feel so for plenty of socio-economic reasons.

Nevertheless, the name of this new tool did seem unfortunate in the extreme to me. Were my skin black, from everything I know, I would definitely feel a twinge of pain and resentment every time one of the many words used historically to define me as less than a respected human being was tossed around in casual conversation.

But some on this list are correct. One can be overly sensitive and some groups do exploit these sensitivities for politely advantage. 

Nevertheless, we must acknowledge that naming of software packages in these times has many cross-cultural implications.

For us, that is the Erlang community, the big question is how can we learn and grow together regardless of our respective cultural heritages? How can we minimize the contentious bickering and trolling that has infected so much discourse across the web?

Tribalism is a reality in our world. Every tribe has its own taboos, sensitivities, and moral blind spots.

But our world is ever more interconnected and interdependent. Empathy and respect for the feelings of others can go a long way toward reducing the friction of cross-cultural exchange. As can respectful discussion of differences.

For me, this thread reinforces my belief in this principle.

All the best,

LRP


Sent from my iPad

On Feb 12, 2018, at 3:06 PM, Jesper Louis Andersen <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:58 PM Joe Armstrong <[hidden email]> wrote:

I have said on many occasions that code should be named by the SHA1 checksum of
the content - as far as I know this would not offend people - apart
from those who
thought the name could be a tad simpler.


I might have said this before, but here goes:

Using a cryptographic checksum for a package and then pointing the name to the checksum would have saved Node.js npm package manager a lot of headaches when people remove, rename or otherwise destroy packages.

It also allows you to comply with legal requests with a sunset period. As in "I hear you, and the name will be given to you. But we give people 6 months time to upgrade before we remove the old checksummed packages".

I'm interested in why someone did not try this yet. Or if one tried, why it didn't work out. It seems very obvious to build a content-addressable-store for your packages.
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Sent from my iPad

On Feb 12, 2018, at 3:06 PM, Jesper Louis Andersen <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:58 PM Joe Armstrong <[hidden email]> wrote:

I have said on many occasions that code should be named by the SHA1 checksum of
the content - as far as I know this would not offend people - apart
from those who
thought the name could be a tad simpler.


I might have said this before, but here goes:

Using a cryptographic checksum for a package and then pointing the name to the checksum would have saved Node.js npm package manager a lot of headaches when people remove, rename or otherwise destroy packages.

It also allows you to comply with legal requests with a sunset period. As in "I hear you, and the name will be given to you. But we give people 6 months time to upgrade before we remove the old checksummed packages".

I'm interested in why someone did not try this yet. Or if one tried, why it didn't work out. It seems very obvious to build a content-addressable-store for your packages.
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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Joe Armstrong-2
In reply to this post by Vlad Dumitrescu-2
On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:06 PM, Vlad Dumitrescu <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:06 PM, Jesper Louis Andersen
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:58 PM Joe Armstrong <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I have said on many occasions that code should be named by the SHA1
>>> checksum of
>>> the content - as far as I know this would not offend people - apart
>>> from those who thought the name could be a tad simpler.
>>>
>>
>> I might have said this before, but here goes:
>> Using a cryptographic checksum for a package and then pointing the name to
>> the checksum would have saved Node.js npm package manager a lot of headaches
>> when people remove, rename or otherwise destroy packages.
>> It also allows you to comply with legal requests with a sunset period. As
>> in "I hear you, and the name will be given to you. But we give people 6
>> months time to upgrade before we remove the old checksummed packages".
>> I'm interested in why someone did not try this yet. Or if one tried, why
>> it didn't work out. It seems very obvious to build a
>> content-addressable-store for your packages.
>
>
> I'm not sure I understand this completely. Using the checksum of a package
> as identifier is IMHO only useful if it is used in the dependencies list of
> other packages. If the deps list uses names (and people will use names
> anyway, not checksums), then the problem remains that in case a package is
> renamed and another one reuses the name, we don't know to which one a
> reference points.

The dependency list should be a list of checksums and NOT a list of
names - this list of
checksums has itself a checksum (the "true" name of the package).

A human readable name is just an alias to a checksum - two different
human readable names
are the "same" if they are aliases to the same checksum.

Basically files should be named by their checksums - for fairly
obvious reasons of
convenience tools should hide or reveal these names when necessary or
appropriate.

For a given content the checksum is unique.

To handle renamings you just need a lookup table of

      {Name, Time, Checksum} tuples that tracks changes to the name of
the checksum over time

Should be easy (Famous last words rule applies here)

Cheers

/Joe




>
> Anyway, hex.pm has a field named "checksum" and it is that value that is
> stored in rebar.lock. So the hash key is there, but I don't see how it is
> useful except for tools.
>
> best regards,
> Vlad
>
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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Vlad Dumitrescu-2


On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:58 PM, Joe Armstrong <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:06 PM, Vlad Dumitrescu <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:06 PM, Jesper Louis Andersen
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Using a cryptographic checksum for a package and then pointing the name to
>> the checksum would have saved Node.js npm package manager a lot of headaches
>> when people remove, rename or otherwise destroy packages.
>> It also allows you to comply with legal requests with a sunset period. As
>> in "I hear you, and the name will be given to you. But we give people 6
>> months time to upgrade before we remove the old checksummed packages".
>> I'm interested in why someone did not try this yet. Or if one tried, why
>> it didn't work out. It seems very obvious to build a
>> content-addressable-store for your packages.
>
>
> I'm not sure I understand this completely. Using the checksum of a package
> as identifier is IMHO only useful if it is used in the dependencies list of
> other packages. If the deps list uses names (and people will use names
> anyway, not checksums), then the problem remains that in case a package is
> renamed and another one reuses the name, we don't know to which one a
> reference points.

The dependency list should be a list of checksums and NOT a list of
names - this list of
checksums has itself a checksum (the "true" name of the package).

A human readable name is just an alias to a checksum - two different
human readable names
are the "same" if they are aliases to the same checksum.

Basically files should be named by their checksums - for fairly
obvious reasons of
convenience tools should hide or reveal these names when necessary or
appropriate.

For a given content the checksum is unique.

To handle renamings you just need a lookup table of

      {Name, Time, Checksum} tuples that tracks changes to the name of
the checksum over time

Thanks for the explanation, I understand the mechanics, but not the "real world usage".

* A checksum referes to a {package_name, time} tuple, so there is no way to refer to the package in general. Except by its name.

* Even if there was, nobody is going to say "For a gizmo processing library, we have to choose between B17556DB683000BA50370B16C0619DF1337E7AF7ECBF7D64FBF8D1D6BCE3109B and 7ACC7D785B5ABE8A6E9ADBDE926A24E481F29956DD8B4DF49E3E4E7BCC92A018, which one is better?" So people will use names. 

* Now the project is presumably configured in a file, written by a programmer - again the name will be used. The hash can be retrieved and stored by the build tool, so that we get a hard reference...

* ... which is exactly what rebar and mix do with hex.pm (if I get it right), except they use the version string instead of timestamp. So if hex.pm keeps track of timestamps and of historical mappings between names and hashes, then it's done!

* However, the imprecision of using names remains because we're humans. Tools already use hashes.

Am I misunderstanding something?

best regards,
Vlad

 

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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Eric des Courtis-3
In reply to this post by Joe Armstrong-2
Everyone, stop acting like a bunch of Java programmers and get back to work!

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:58 PM, Joe Armstrong <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:06 PM, Vlad Dumitrescu <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:06 PM, Jesper Louis Andersen
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:58 PM Joe Armstrong <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I have said on many occasions that code should be named by the SHA1
>>> checksum of
>>> the content - as far as I know this would not offend people - apart
>>> from those who thought the name could be a tad simpler.
>>>
>>
>> I might have said this before, but here goes:
>> Using a cryptographic checksum for a package and then pointing the name to
>> the checksum would have saved Node.js npm package manager a lot of headaches
>> when people remove, rename or otherwise destroy packages.
>> It also allows you to comply with legal requests with a sunset period. As
>> in "I hear you, and the name will be given to you. But we give people 6
>> months time to upgrade before we remove the old checksummed packages".
>> I'm interested in why someone did not try this yet. Or if one tried, why
>> it didn't work out. It seems very obvious to build a
>> content-addressable-store for your packages.
>
>
> I'm not sure I understand this completely. Using the checksum of a package
> as identifier is IMHO only useful if it is used in the dependencies list of
> other packages. If the deps list uses names (and people will use names
> anyway, not checksums), then the problem remains that in case a package is
> renamed and another one reuses the name, we don't know to which one a
> reference points.

The dependency list should be a list of checksums and NOT a list of
names - this list of
checksums has itself a checksum (the "true" name of the package).

A human readable name is just an alias to a checksum - two different
human readable names
are the "same" if they are aliases to the same checksum.

Basically files should be named by their checksums - for fairly
obvious reasons of
convenience tools should hide or reveal these names when necessary or
appropriate.

For a given content the checksum is unique.

To handle renamings you just need a lookup table of

      {Name, Time, Checksum} tuples that tracks changes to the name of
the checksum over time

Should be easy (Famous last words rule applies here)

Cheers

/Joe




>
> Anyway, hex.pm has a field named "checksum" and it is that value that is
> stored in rebar.lock. So the hash key is there, but I don't see how it is
> useful except for tools.
>
> best regards,
> Vlad
>
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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

CARPENTER, TOMMY J (TOMMY J)
In reply to this post by Valery Tikhonov
There’s something that hasn’t been discussed much in this thread.

I was part of the small group responsible for bringing Erlang into one of the largest companies in the world; AT&T (not counting the hardware that probably runs Erlang). As such, I am partially responsible for the vetting of the ecosystem as well as popular libraries that developers would use.  Would I *ever* put a codebase into my company using this package? No. Would I *ever* use this in a codebase that a single other developer could see? No. Would I add this to the Erlang ecosystem inside AT&T? No. I don’t wish for a date with corporate lawyers. 
If it had a better name, and was a good software project, would I? Absolutely.

You are asking for lawsuits if you use this kind of horrible language in the workplace. It doesn’t matter what the intent is. 

If your goal is adoption, pick a name that people can use in all situations ranging from personal projects to large company projects. 

From: Charles Hixson <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services
Date: February 12, 2018 at 1:26:02 PM EST


I'm sorry, but "coon" was definitely a pejorative term during *my* childhood.  I'm not a part of the affected group, but it is certainly one of the strongly associated meanings that attach to it in my mind.  Use a word meaning the same animal from a different language.   Or spell out the name in full.  Or name it after someone's pet raccoon.  Or just change it.  There's no downside to changing it, and there is a downside to keeping it.  I don't know how strong a downside, but it's better to avoid any.


On 02/12/2018 07:11 AM, Chris Waymire wrote:
The idea that a software library that happens to share name with a racial slur that is over 180 years old and has not been part of common social use for several decades would make people angry is ridiculous. Especially when the word as meanings that pre-date the slur. If that upsets you to the point where you are unable to get past it then it is time to unplug your tv, your radio and your internet and live a life of peaceful solitude.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 7:03 AM, Loïc Hoguin <[hidden email]> wrote:
This idea that white supremacists need a reason to call others using racial slurs is ridiculous at best. At this rate you will call me a Nazi by the next reply. Fingers crossed.

Again Valery does not apply this term to black people or make any reference about them or the US History, so there's no intent here. He's using the other meaning.

Soon you will argue that hunters are racists because they call racoons "coons".


On 02/12/2018 03:53 PM, Josh Barney wrote:
Intent IS important and the intent of the people who applied this term to black people was a very bad intent.

?People are getting offended much too easily these days? ? this argument has been plastered all over American news for years, always coming from a privileged group claiming hurt. This is the white supremesist position.


On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:34 AM Lo?c Hoguin <[hidden email]> wrote:

    This reminds me of people who were calling some coffee brand racist not
    realizing that the Spanish or Portuguese translation for "black"
    looks a
    lot like a racist slur.

    People are getting offended much too easily these days. Intent is
    important and there's no intent to slur here.

    On 02/12/2018 03:15 PM, Josh Barney wrote:
     > One would presume that all the black persons who have been called
    in an
     > effort to reduce them to rabid animals hunted for sport by white men
     > with dogs would be aware. That?s the import thing about racial
    slurs,
     > not that you are unhurt, but that someone else is hurt.
     >
     > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:04 AM Lo?c Hoguin <[hidden email]>
    wrote:
     >
     > More importantly, who is aware of them? I doubt too many people
    outside
     > of North America know about it.
     >
     > And secondly, should you censor a word that's otherwise perfectly
    fine
     > because of its use in slang? It'll get some radical activists
    angry for
     > sure so it depends on whether you see this as a good or a bad thing.
     > Nowadays that tends to be a good thing.
     >
     > Most people will not think twice about it.
     >
     > On 02/12/2018 02:17 PM, Fred Hebert wrote:
     > > Are you aware of the connotations coming with that name?
     > >
     > > On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 4:05 PM, Valery Tikhonov
     > > <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
     > wrote:
     > >
     > > Hi,
     > > I would like to introduce ?oon
    <https://github.com/comtihon/coon> -
     > > build and dependency management system and tool for easy
    deployment
     > > Erlang packages.
     > > In short:
     > >
     > > * coon uses prebuilt packages from CoonHub
     > > <https://coon.justtech.blog>, what reduces build time
     > > * thanks to github integration it allows to trigger new builds for
     > > Erlang packages when commiting new tag in repo
     > > * you can set installation steps to deploy and run Erlang service
     > > from prebuilt package on system without otp/Erlang installed
     > > with `coon install namespace/name`
     > >
     > > Documentation, articles and links:
     > >
     > > coon (client) - https://github.com/comtihon/coon
     > > <https://github.com/comtihon/coon> see Readme.md and doc folder
     > >
     > > coon_auto_builder (server) -
     > > https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder
     > > <https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder>
     > >
     > > how to create and build Erlang service from scratch
     > > https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/
     > >
    <https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/>
     > >
     > > how to prepare Erlang service for deploy
     > >
     >
    https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/
     > >
     >
    <https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/>

     > >
     > > example service which uses coon
     > > https://github.com/comtihon/example_service
     > > <https://github.com/comtihon/example_service>
     > >
     > > example library which uses coon
     > > https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang
     > > <https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang>
     > >
     > > Hope you find this tool useful :)
     > >
     > >
     > >
     > >
     > > _______________________________________________
     > > erlang-questions mailing list
     > > [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
     > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
     > > <http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions>
     > >
     > >
     > >
     > >
     > > _______________________________________________
     > > erlang-questions mailing list
     > > [hidden email]
     > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
     > >
     >
     > --
     > Lo?c Hoguin
     > https://ninenines.eu
     > _______________________________________________
     > erlang-questions mailing list
     > [hidden email]
     > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
     >

    --     Lo?c Hoguin
    https://ninenines.eu


--
Loïc Hoguin

https://ninenines.eu
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From: Charles Hixson <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services
Date: February 12, 2018 at 1:38:04 PM EST


Well, it really depends on how long the library has had that name.  I never expected the gimp people to change the name of their program when it was pointed out that some might find the name offensive...but it has retarded the success of the project significantly, and kept it out of at least two businesses that I know of.  Recently they've started altering the display so that is doesn't say "The Gimp" but now says "The GNU Image Manipulation Program" on the startup screen.  That's what "The Gimp" always stood for, but now they've altered the startup screen to make the name less blatant...because some people *were* offended, and because businesses didn't want to risk offending customers.

I wouldn't avoid using the library because of the name, but I might well avoid mentioning it to others.


On 02/12/2018 08:58 AM, Russell Brown wrote:
Tristan is right. This really is awful. I can’t believe there’s even an argument. If someone emailed me to tell me that my library's name was offensive, I’d apologises and change it. Maybe that’s just me. I think this case is indefensible. And those who ask that we _not talk about it_ but instead talk about the technical merits, no.

If there’s a commercial entity associated with this I hope they act soon.

I need to use erlang for my work, please don’t stick with this name. I don’t want to be in anyway even tangentially associated with it. Does github not have some policy about this repo name, also?

On 12 Feb 2018, at 17:16, Tristan Sloughter [hidden email] wrote:

This is awful. But sadly not surprising. Intent only matters in the sense the author is not at fault. Intent does not matter when it comes to whether or not you want to not push people away.

For those who don't care what I or Fred say since we are white, it is easy enough to go ask Black developers in North American. 

-- 
 Tristan Sloughter
 "I am not a crackpot" - Abe Simpson
 [hidden email]

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018, at 7:29 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
On 2018年2月12日月曜日 10時16分51秒 JST Fred Hebert wrote:
Intent does not matter.
No.

Fred, I have enormous respect for you and have gone several rounds with 
you on several subjects, each time having learned something for my own 
part. On technical subjects, anyway.

But... INTENT

You are demonstraby wrong already. Just stop. You will not win against 
the weight of history.

This is becoming some SJW ridiculousness already, not because you care 
about that but because of the ambient temperature. I know SJW flippancy 
is not your intent, but that is the only place this winds up going these 
days. That is not a small failure -- it quickly becomes a systemic one, 
not just in a concurrent software system of ephemeral importance, but a 
concrete socio-economic one of critical importance that pays for all the 
other parties we enjoy.

Riddle me this:
If we cannot undersand enough about the software systems that WE WRITE 
OURSELVES that we need the "let it crash" mentality, how is it that we 
somehow understand to a manifest degree the economic and social value 
systems (which are profoundly more complex than our petty software 
systems) that we can dictate value within them? By what restart 
mechanism is this all brought back to a "reasonble default"?

I am sincerely desirous of an answer here, because I have a profound 
respect for your intellect but cannot imagine that you have properly 
considered the alternatives or where this path of discourse winds up 
eventualy going.

-Craig
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From: Antonio SJ Musumeci <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services
Date: February 12, 2018 at 1:54:53 PM EST
To: Charles Hixson <[hidden email]>
Cc: Erlang-Questions Questions <[hidden email]>


"retarded"

Poor word choice given the thread topic.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 1:38 PM, Charles Hixson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Well, it really depends on how long the library has had that name.  I never expected the gimp people to change the name of their program when it was pointed out that some might find the name offensive...but it has retarded the success of the project significantly, and kept it out of at least two businesses that I know of.  Recently they've started altering the display so that is doesn't say "The Gimp" but now says "The GNU Image Manipulation Program" on the startup screen.  That's what "The Gimp" always stood for, but now they've altered the startup screen to make the name less blatant...because some people *were* offended, and because businesses didn't want to risk offending customers.

I wouldn't avoid using the library because of the name, but I might well avoid mentioning it to others.


On 02/12/2018 08:58 AM, Russell Brown wrote:
Tristan is right. This really is awful. I can’t believe there’s even an argument. If someone emailed me to tell me that my library's name was offensive, I’d apologises and change it. Maybe that’s just me. I think this case is indefensible. And those who ask that we _not talk about it_ but instead talk about the technical merits, no.

If there’s a commercial entity associated with this I hope they act soon.

I need to use erlang for my work, please don’t stick with this name. I don’t want to be in anyway even tangentially associated with it. Does github not have some policy about this repo name, also?

On 12 Feb 2018, at 17:16, Tristan Sloughter [hidden email] wrote:

This is awful. But sadly not surprising. Intent only matters in the sense the author is not at fault. Intent does not matter when it comes to whether or not you want to not push people away.

For those who don't care what I or Fred say since we are white, it is easy enough to go ask Black developers in North American. 

-- 
 Tristan Sloughter
 "I am not a crackpot" - Abe Simpson
 [hidden email]

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018, at 7:29 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
On 2018年2月12日月曜日 10時16分51秒 JST Fred Hebert wrote:
Intent does not matter.
No.

Fred, I have enormous respect for you and have gone several rounds with 
you on several subjects, each time having learned something for my own 
part. On technical subjects, anyway.

But... INTENT

You are demonstraby wrong already. Just stop. You will not win against 
the weight of history.

This is becoming some SJW ridiculousness already, not because you care 
about that but because of the ambient temperature. I know SJW flippancy 
is not your intent, but that is the only place this winds up going these 
days. That is not a small failure -- it quickly becomes a systemic one, 
not just in a concurrent software system of ephemeral importance, but a 
concrete socio-economic one of critical importance that pays for all the 
other parties we enjoy.

Riddle me this:
If we cannot undersand enough about the software systems that WE WRITE 
OURSELVES that we need the "let it crash" mentality, how is it that we 
somehow understand to a manifest degree the economic and social value 
systems (which are profoundly more complex than our petty software 
systems) that we can dictate value within them? By what restart 
mechanism is this all brought back to a "reasonble default"?

I am sincerely desirous of an answer here, because I have a profound 
respect for your intellect but cannot imagine that you have properly 
considered the alternatives or where this path of discourse winds up 
eventualy going.

-Craig
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From: Charles Hixson <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services
Date: February 12, 2018 at 1:59:28 PM EST


"Coon" is often used as a shortened name for the animal.  If you can definitely tell from context that that is what is meant, it isn't (usually) seen as a racial slur.  But you do need to know your audience.  If you don't, it's almost certain that a major fraction of them will consider the slur as a plausible meaning.  And that's when the context implies that you mean "raccoon".


On 02/12/2018 08:52 AM, Chris Duesing wrote:
I can't believe this "discussion" is happening. Coon is a racial slur, there is no other use of the word. The fact that a bunch of white Europeans are pointing out that the dozen people involved in this thread aren't offended simply shows the lack of diversity in the mailing list. The "oh I'm butthurt because other people get offended by things" is fucking ridiculous. It is a racial slur, period. If this isn't a library only intended to be used by racist fucks then rename it.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:28 AM, nx <[hidden email]> wrote:
For what it's worth, the first thing I thought of when I saw the title of this thread was "that is a racist slur". I've also never heard anyone call a raccoon a coon.

The news that cowboy was named for "cowboys kill apaches" is disappointing.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:22 AM Fred Hebert <[hidden email]> wrote:
What I'm saying is that it does not matter how I interpret things. I asked and the author said publicly it was a raccoon. I'm okay with that explanation and I'm ready to believe it.

My point is that other people won't ask the author, won't know who he is, and will pick an interpretation and stick with it. They won't need the context, they won't need anything. They'll just do it. The name can be interpreted in a racist way, and so it's pretty much guaranteed that it will be eventually interpreted that way. The author is free to go ahead and keep the name, and the users and onlookers will be free to read whatever they want in that name.

That is 100% my point.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:17 AM, Krzysztof Jurewicz <[hidden email]> wrote:
Fred Hebert writes:

> Anyone is of course free to name their software whatever they want. Picking
> a racist name is however never going to be consequences-free as this e-mail
> thread first shows on the first day of release, and adoption figures may
> also reflect it.

Merriam-Webster online dictionary (naming itself as “America’s most-trusted online dictionary”) says that there two meanings of “coon”:

⒈ raccoon;
⒉ offensive — used as an insulting and contemptuous term for a black person.

I presume that context matters. What makes you think that in this context this word means ⒉? Wikipedia in the article about raccoon says that is also known coloquially as “coon”, so I guess this is not a very uncommon usage.

Or are you saying that non-racist usages of words that have also racist meanings should be eventually abandoned?

(I’m not a native speaker, so bear with my eventual ignorance).

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From: Charles Hixson <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services
Date: February 12, 2018 at 2:11:30 PM EST


Did you ever read how much Exxon paid to find a name that wasn't taken and wasn't objectionable?  Whee!  I was shocked.  (I couldn't find a link for it in a short Google search, and I don't remember the exact figure, but it was more than the cost of the most recently built college dorm.)

But it's also true that it's important that a name be easily memorable, which lets out the SHA-1 choice...though that makes a good unique identifier.

Picking a good name is hard.  But to me this doesn't seem a wise choice.

On 02/12/2018 09:58 AM, Joe Armstrong wrote:
Goodness - what a lot of mails.

When choosing a name the following algorithm is used by many
organisations and people

    1) Choose a name
    2) Check in all known languages if this might offend someone
        if it does goto 1)

(There are even companies you can hire that do this, if it's a big product)

If I wrote some software I would like it to be discussed for the right
reasons, which are

    - it is useful
    - it is beautiful
    - it solves some interesting problem
    - it raises and solves some interesting problem

I would not like it to be discussed for my skills in naming the damn code.

I have said on many occasions that code should be named by the SHA1 checksum of
the content - as far as I know this would not offend people - apart
from those who
thought the name could be a tad simpler.

If you choose the wrong name you can accidentally offend people, even if this
is not your intention - offending people has consequences.

Cheers

/Joe




On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:28 PM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 2018年2月12日月曜日 12時10分20秒 JST Tom Santero wrote:
Putting the project's name aside for a moment, there are two things I'd
like to point about:
THANK YOU

1. i would never pull a pre-built binary from a 3rd party into one of my
projects. lol security?
I disagree, in that we are right back in "trusting trust" territory. I prefer building from source (for a number of reasons) but source or not, for nearly everyone (perhaps actually everyone) who builds a project that involves external dependencies, the security is only as strong as the signature on the code received (and implicitly, the trust of the signature scheme employed) and the trust of the review process which granted the signature.

Both are greviously lacking in using direct-from-github packages (whether source or pre-built) as repository inputs.

2. that this project doesn't address rebar3/relx/hex at all means it is at
odds with the direction the community has been pushing toward for several
years now, and makes it relatively useless
I disagree again. In this era we have full-blown systems to drive; the common case today is NOT to deploy to a resource-strapped or custom-built piece of hardware that can never be accessed by system administrators. The common environment today is more like a (to use an awful term) "devops" environment where people want things to rebuild in the lightest possible way and "just go". Which is to say, people desperately wish that Erlang (not to mention Elixir) code could be more commonly built and run the way Python projects that use virtualenv can be.

I think the to-date direction of the Erlang community de facto practices is a bit dated, being built around the ancient and original assumption "everything has to be an Erlang distribution".

-Craig
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From: Loïc Hoguin <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services
Date: February 12, 2018 at 2:13:59 PM EST
To: Tom Santero <[hidden email]>
Cc: Erlang <[hidden email]>


On 02/12/2018 07:10 PM, Tom Santero wrote:
On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 1:02 PM, Loïc Hoguin <[hidden email] <[hidden email]>> wrote:
   On 02/12/2018 05:13 PM, Fred Hebert wrote:> Loic can correct me if
   he's wrong, but his /Cowboy/ web server took its
       initial name because /cowboys kill apaches/ if I recall old
       conference conversations. I think it's of poor taste, but so far
       Loic has not had any fall out or enough offended people to make
       any change, and he did build a successful business out of it. He
       made the call and ran with it.
   Oversimplified of course but true. Context is important though, my
   knowledge of cowboys mostly comes from Lucky Luke and a few farwest
   movies, so the inspiration is fictional.
   Nobody has had any problem with it.
Actually, plenty of us have had a problem with it for a long time Loic. Those of us who knew the origin. The term cowboy absent your naming context is of course innocuous, which might explain why it's coasted under the radar for so long without having been called out; in context, it is disappointing.

If ignorance is disappointing then so be it. But in that case you must be horrified at a lot of western related entertainment products. Watching kids play "cowboys and indians" must be truly heartbreaking too.

I grew up with Lucky Luke, Tintin, Asterix and other fictions. Cowboy comes from there. Sure some of the stories raise some eyebrows today (Tintin in the Congo is particularly infamous, and it's especially telling that it hadn't been translated to English for so long despite being translated everywhere else), but that doesn't make the people who enjoy them whatever *ist some want them to be.

Ignorance of US history is to be expected of non-US people. The same applies everywhere. You can't really expect a single developer to know all the intricacies of all existing *and future* cultures and languages. Culture changes fast enough that you might see otherwise normal words become slur within your lifetime.

According to some people, and I'm no expert, Thanksgiving originates with the genocide of native Americans. Should Thanksgiving be dropped because of its origins? Clearly some people are offended by it, otherwise I wouldn't have heard of this from faraway lands. Still I don't think the people celebrating Thanksgiving today are celebrating genocide. In the same vein, me naming a project after fictional stories does not make me side with anyone in historical events.

Finally, the origin of a name is one thing, its use another. Sure that's how the idea came to me, remembering fictional stories and naming the project after them. But that's not how it's been used since. The process for coming up with the name is irrelevant, just as the history behind a practice is irrelevant to how it's practiced today. What matters is how things are today, and today the western theme is just that, a theme.

And just to complete the story behind the Cowboy name: I initially thought of using the name of a tribe but because there was already a number of them in use in software projects, including the Apache and Cherokee HTTP servers, and I was not familiar with the others, I decided against it. So we came real close of having the name being the same as a native American tribe. Maybe later.

Cheers,

--
Loïc Hoguin
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__ninenines.eu&d=DwIDaQ&c=LFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=SzPZyK7sS4bZdLIkMcdKpW4KvY21Qu_WkFPys6hw8iM&m=lAOHkDrV58PRZsCMJ6QEtwDTiqdoZGjds-UZQ6Ums44&s=J03QS8mi2WFKwEnw6RBjqweAAWy4ynOHjx4BZO00wEw&e=



From: Stefan Strigler <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services
Date: February 12, 2018 at 3:05:33 PM EST
To: Loïc Hoguin <[hidden email]>
Cc: Erlang <[hidden email]>


There's a difference between making a mistake and refusing to learn from them once pointed out.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 8:14 PM Loïc Hoguin <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 02/12/2018 07:10 PM, Tom Santero wrote:
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 1:02 PM, Loïc Hoguin <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     On 02/12/2018 05:13 PM, Fred Hebert wrote:> Loic can correct me if
>     he's wrong, but his /Cowboy/ web server took its
>
>         initial name because /cowboys kill apaches/ if I recall old
>         conference conversations. I think it's of poor taste, but so far
>         Loic has not had any fall out or enough offended people to make
>         any change, and he did build a successful business out of it. He
>         made the call and ran with it.
>
>
>     Oversimplified of course but true. Context is important though, my
>     knowledge of cowboys mostly comes from Lucky Luke and a few farwest
>     movies, so the inspiration is fictional.
>
>     Nobody has had any problem with it.
>
>
> Actually, plenty of us have had a problem with it for a long time Loic.
> Those of us who knew the origin. The term cowboy absent your naming
> context is of course innocuous, which might explain why it's coasted
> under the radar for so long without having been called out; in context,
> it is disappointing.

If ignorance is disappointing then so be it. But in that case you must
be horrified at a lot of western related entertainment products.
Watching kids play "cowboys and indians" must be truly heartbreaking too.

I grew up with Lucky Luke, Tintin, Asterix and other fictions. Cowboy
comes from there. Sure some of the stories raise some eyebrows today
(Tintin in the Congo is particularly infamous, and it's especially
telling that it hadn't been translated to English for so long despite
being translated everywhere else), but that doesn't make the people who
enjoy them whatever *ist some want them to be.

Ignorance of US history is to be expected of non-US people. The same
applies everywhere. You can't really expect a single developer to know
all the intricacies of all existing *and future* cultures and languages.
Culture changes fast enough that you might see otherwise normal words
become slur within your lifetime.

According to some people, and I'm no expert, Thanksgiving originates
with the genocide of native Americans. Should Thanksgiving be dropped
because of its origins? Clearly some people are offended by it,
otherwise I wouldn't have heard of this from faraway lands. Still I
don't think the people celebrating Thanksgiving today are celebrating
genocide. In the same vein, me naming a project after fictional stories
does not make me side with anyone in historical events.

Finally, the origin of a name is one thing, its use another. Sure that's
how the idea came to me, remembering fictional stories and naming the
project after them. But that's not how it's been used since. The process
for coming up with the name is irrelevant, just as the history behind a
practice is irrelevant to how it's practiced today. What matters is how
things are today, and today the western theme is just that, a theme.

And just to complete the story behind the Cowboy name: I initially
thought of using the name of a tribe but because there was already a
number of them in use in software projects, including the Apache and
Cherokee HTTP servers, and I was not familiar with the others, I decided
against it. So we came real close of having the name being the same as a
native American tribe. Maybe later.

Cheers,

--
Loïc Hoguin
https://ninenines.eu
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erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
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From: Jesper Louis Andersen <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services
Date: February 12, 2018 at 3:06:35 PM EST
To: Joe Armstrong <[hidden email]>
Cc: Erlang <[hidden email]>


On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:58 PM Joe Armstrong <[hidden email]> wrote:

I have said on many occasions that code should be named by the SHA1 checksum of
the content - as far as I know this would not offend people - apart
from those who
thought the name could be a tad simpler.


I might have said this before, but here goes:

Using a cryptographic checksum for a package and then pointing the name to the checksum would have saved Node.js npm package manager a lot of headaches when people remove, rename or otherwise destroy packages.

It also allows you to comply with legal requests with a sunset period. As in "I hear you, and the name will be given to you. But we give people 6 months time to upgrade before we remove the old checksummed packages".

I'm interested in why someone did not try this yet. Or if one tried, why it didn't work out. It seems very obvious to build a content-addressable-store for your packages.



From: Vlad Dumitrescu <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services
Date: February 12, 2018 at 4:06:28 PM EST
To: Jesper Louis Andersen <[hidden email]>
Cc: Erlang <[hidden email]>



On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:06 PM, Jesper Louis Andersen <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:58 PM Joe Armstrong <[hidden email]> wrote:

I have said on many occasions that code should be named by the SHA1 checksum of
the content - as far as I know this would not offend people - apart
from those who thought the name could be a tad simpler.


I might have said this before, but here goes:
Using a cryptographic checksum for a package and then pointing the name to the checksum would have saved Node.js npm package manager a lot of headaches when people remove, rename or otherwise destroy packages.
It also allows you to comply with legal requests with a sunset period. As in "I hear you, and the name will be given to you. But we give people 6 months time to upgrade before we remove the old checksummed packages".
I'm interested in why someone did not try this yet. Or if one tried, why it didn't work out. It seems very obvious to build a content-addressable-store for your packages.

I'm not sure I understand this completely. Using the checksum of a package as identifier is IMHO only useful if it is used in the dependencies list of other packages. If the deps list uses names (and people will use names anyway, not checksums), then the problem remains that in case a package is renamed and another one reuses the name, we don't know to which one a reference points. 

Anyway, hex.pm has a field named "checksum" and it is that value that is stored in rebar.lock. So the hash key is there, but I don't see how it is useful except for tools. 

best regards,
Vlad




From: "Lloyd R. Prentice" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services
Date: February 12, 2018 at 4:35:26 PM EST
To: Jesper Louis Andersen <[hidden email]>
Cc: Erlang <[hidden email]>


Hello,

Jesper and Joe do make good sense to me. 

And, more, I would like to see much more informed debate on the technical merits of this new tool.

As aside, however, I haven’t seen so much activity on this list since I first subscribed some four years ago. 

Note that we haven’t heard from any North American black Erlang programmers on this list. Why would that be?

I’m a privileged, white (so far as I know from my spotty genealogy, although the recent work on the Chadwick man casts some doubt), provincial North American male. 

Some in my genetic/gender/national cohort feel that our group is being grievously discriminated against. I don’t happen to feel so for plenty of socio-economic reasons.

Nevertheless, the name of this new tool did seem unfortunate in the extreme to me. Were my skin black, from everything I know, I would definitely feel a twinge of pain and resentment every time one of the many words used historically to define me as less than a respected human being was tossed around in casual conversation.

But some on this list are correct. One can be overly sensitive and some groups do exploit these sensitivities for politely advantage. 

Nevertheless, we must acknowledge that naming of software packages in these times has many cross-cultural implications.

For us, that is the Erlang community, the big question is how can we learn and grow together regardless of our respective cultural heritages? How can we minimize the contentious bickering and trolling that has infected so much discourse across the web?

Tribalism is a reality in our world. Every tribe has its own taboos, sensitivities, and moral blind spots.

But our world is ever more interconnected and interdependent. Empathy and respect for the feelings of others can go a long way toward reducing the friction of cross-cultural exchange. As can respectful discussion of differences.

For me, this thread reinforces my belief in this principle.

All the best,

LRP


Sent from my iPad

On Feb 12, 2018, at 3:06 PM, Jesper Louis Andersen <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:58 PM Joe Armstrong <[hidden email]> wrote:

I have said on many occasions that code should be named by the SHA1 checksum of
the content - as far as I know this would not offend people - apart
from those who
thought the name could be a tad simpler.


I might have said this before, but here goes:

Using a cryptographic checksum for a package and then pointing the name to the checksum would have saved Node.js npm package manager a lot of headaches when people remove, rename or otherwise destroy packages.

It also allows you to comply with legal requests with a sunset period. As in "I hear you, and the name will be given to you. But we give people 6 months time to upgrade before we remove the old checksummed packages".

I'm interested in why someone did not try this yet. Or if one tried, why it didn't work out. It seems very obvious to build a content-addressable-store for your packages.
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Sent from my iPad

On Feb 12, 2018, at 3:06 PM, Jesper Louis Andersen <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:58 PM Joe Armstrong <[hidden email]> wrote:

I have said on many occasions that code should be named by the SHA1 checksum of
the content - as far as I know this would not offend people - apart
from those who
thought the name could be a tad simpler.


I might have said this before, but here goes:

Using a cryptographic checksum for a package and then pointing the name to the checksum would have saved Node.js npm package manager a lot of headaches when people remove, rename or otherwise destroy packages.

It also allows you to comply with legal requests with a sunset period. As in "I hear you, and the name will be given to you. But we give people 6 months time to upgrade before we remove the old checksummed packages".

I'm interested in why someone did not try this yet. Or if one tried, why it didn't work out. It seems very obvious to build a content-addressable-store for your packages.
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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

dieswaytoofast
In reply to this post by Roman Galeev
Identifiers matter. They tell the world a lot about how something is perceived. Naming can get awfully hard, depending on the reach - what might work really well in rural Alabama might not work so well in San Francisco (and vice-versa). If you're in Branding, and don't have  ADL database auto-completing in your URL-bar, you're not going to get very far. 

Intent matters. Of course it does. Maybe you want to appeal to racists and nationalists - I mean, its' working quite well as a strategy in quite a bit of the world these days. On the other hand, if you *don't*, and someone points out to you that your choice of words may not be the wisest choice, well, you might want to reconsider it (•). Note that the point here isn't "people shouldn't be offended". People *are* offended, and thats about all that matters - remember, this is about the marketing aspects of naming.

Empathy matters. Put yourself in somebody else's shoes - and ask yourself how they might feel about your actions. Not how they should feel, but how they might actually feel. 

Privilege matters. I grew up as a Brahmin, in India. It's been a long while - 30 years - since the default privilege that comes from that upbringing has been useful, but even now, when I end up on the receiving end of stop-and-frisked, being brown in the wrong place, casual and explicit racist invective, and the works, I fall back on that privilege. It's not an explicit thing - it's having been part of an entire culture where being brahmin means I'm better than those people

Employee retention matters. I spend a lot of time, energy, and yes, money, in getting people up to speed, developing trust in each other, and working cohesively as a team. It's a delicate thing, this balance, and the last thing I need is casual racism or gender-issues into the mix. 

Cheers

(•) In the 70s, I pretty freely using the n-word. I grew up in a fairly disconnected part of India at the time (Kanpur), and we, literally, did not know (and heck, hadn't ever seen) any african-americans - and about the only context around this we had was some spectacularly racist faux-westerns by an author named J.T.Edson. Fast-forward a few years, to my graduate-school days in the U.S at Notre Dame, and my (pretty rapid) discovery that, well, I probably shouldn't.



On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:38 PM, Roman Galeev <[hidden email]> wrote:
The worst part of it that nobody is offended at this very moment, but Fred speaks for people who could be offended, in his opinion. But could they, or could they not nobody knows (except them, but they are not present). Maybe the same people could be offended by other words as well, how do we know? And should we really care (having quite offensive names in the wild already)? Should we run all possible project names through the council of these people?

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:56 PM, Zachary Kessin <[hidden email]> wrote:
I would like to second what Fred said. I just went through something like this in a different context and I have to say "its not reasonable that <Group> is offended" is a pretty bad apology. 

Zach Kessin - CEO Finch Software
I boost sales with retail chatbots for fashion and cosmetics
<a href="tel:+972%2054-234-3956" value="+972542343956" target="_blank">+972 54 234 3956 / <a href="tel:+44%2020%203734%209790" value="+442037349790" target="_blank">+44 203 734 9790 / <a href="tel:(617)%20778-7213" value="+16177787213" target="_blank">+1 617 778 7213

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 5:46 PM, Fred Hebert <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:29 AM, <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 2018年2月12日月曜日 10時16分51秒 JST Fred Hebert wrote:
> Intent does not matter.

No.

Fred, I have enormous respect for you and have gone several rounds with you on several subjects, each time having learned something for my own part. On technical subjects, anyway.

But... INTENT

You are demonstraby wrong already. Just stop. You will not win against the weight of history.

I am not wrong in not wanting to ever introduce this library in my god damn workplace. Because I know and have worked with people who do find this kind of shit offensive.

I'm happy you live in a place and in a context where everyone is fine with that. This has not been the reality of the people I have spent time with both professionally and personally.
 

This is becoming some SJW ridiculousness already, not because you care about that but because of the ambient temperature. I know SJW flippancy is not your intent, but that is the only place this winds up going these days. That is not a small failure -- it quickly becomes a systemic one, not just in a concurrent software system of ephemeral importance, but a concrete socio-economic one of critical importance that pays for all the other parties we enjoy.

I'm surprised that you find the idea that using a term that can very reasonably be construed as racist is SJW flippancy.

Let's take a quick look by looking at first definitions on Urban Dictionary for a game. I picked random animal names or short terms:
 Oh hm. Sorry I guess the usage is really forgotten for that one.

Intent does not matter is not me saying that the author of the lib is racist or ill-intended. It's me saying that no matter the original intent, the consequences will be the result of the reader's interpretation. Look this is even a principle in literary review called The death of the author (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_the_Author):

In his essay, Barthes argues against the method of reading and criticism that relies on aspects of the author's identity—their political views, historical context, religion, ethnicity, psychology, or other biographical or personal attributes—to distill meaning from the author's work. In this type of criticism, the experiences and biases of the author serve as a definitive "explanation" of the text. For Barthes, this method of reading may be apparently tidy and convenient but is actually sloppy and flawed: "To give a text an author" and assign a single, corresponding interpretation to it "is to impose a limit on that text".

[...]

In a well-known quotation, Barthes draws an analogy between text and textiles, declaring that a "text is a tissue [or fabric] of quotations", drawn from "innumerable centers of culture", rather than from one, individual experience. The essential meaning of a work depends on the impressions of the reader, rather than the "passions" or "tastes" of the writer; "a text's unity lies not in its origins", or its creator, "but in its destination", or its audience.

The whole point is that you cannot reasonably expect the author to be around to give meaning and maintain these things. What the author intends is not relevant in the long run because the interpretation can get away from it. It's like in satire: good satire/irony/sarcasm must be visible and enough in your face that it won't be construed as supporting the system you are attempting to criticize.

Intent does not matter.



Riddle me this:
If we cannot undersand enough about the software systems that WE WRITE OURSELVES that we need the "let it crash" mentality, how is it that we somehow understand to a manifest degree the economic and social value systems (which are profoundly more complex than our petty software systems) that we can dictate value within them? By what restart mechanism is this all brought back to a "reasonble default"?

I am sincerely desirous of an answer here, because I have a profound respect for your intellect but cannot imagine that you have properly considered the alternatives or where this path of discourse winds up eventualy going.

I very much stand by intent does not matter. It matters to me in this context and I do not yet judge Valery negatively, I trust that raccoon was indeed the original name intent. It does not mean that other people will do the same. Expecting other people to do the same is downright absurd and foolish. If your entire position relies on explaining every single person the origin of the name for things to go well, you have taken the losing battle of tilting at windmills. This is the hill you die on. What I'm doing here is giving a really fucking serious warning of how much windmill tilting you'll get into.

If you want me to go by the Let it Crash maxim, the idea of let it crash is to not try to handle all the errors and letting them fail early and often. Start from a clean slate rather than trying to correct corrupted state. What I'm doing here is trying to crash this stupid ass project name as early as possible so the author doesn't get stuck trying to handle every error coming their way in the near future. Look at it this way. You even have a bunch of terms for it in this single thread: SJW Flippancy. Loic brought up identity politics. Roman is trying make a tally of who is it who's offended in the first place as if that made any difference the moment this gets out of here.

If you can't see that as a warning sign when this discussion is taking place within mailing list regulars, what will be a reasonable waning sign to you?

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With best regards,
     Roman Galeev,
     <a href="tel:+420%20702%20817%20968" value="+420702817968" target="_blank">+420 702 817 968

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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Stefan Strigler-3
+1 Mahesh, you're the best, thanks for taking that effort!


On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 12:51 AM Mahesh Paolini-Subramanya <[hidden email]> wrote:
Identifiers matter. They tell the world a lot about how something is perceived. Naming can get awfully hard, depending on the reach - what might work really well in rural Alabama might not work so well in San Francisco (and vice-versa). If you're in Branding, and don't have  ADL database auto-completing in your URL-bar, you're not going to get very far. 

Intent matters. Of course it does. Maybe you want to appeal to racists and nationalists - I mean, its' working quite well as a strategy in quite a bit of the world these days. On the other hand, if you *don't*, and someone points out to you that your choice of words may not be the wisest choice, well, you might want to reconsider it (•). Note that the point here isn't "people shouldn't be offended". People *are* offended, and thats about all that matters - remember, this is about the marketing aspects of naming.

Empathy matters. Put yourself in somebody else's shoes - and ask yourself how they might feel about your actions. Not how they should feel, but how they might actually feel. 

Privilege matters. I grew up as a Brahmin, in India. It's been a long while - 30 years - since the default privilege that comes from that upbringing has been useful, but even now, when I end up on the receiving end of stop-and-frisked, being brown in the wrong place, casual and explicit racist invective, and the works, I fall back on that privilege. It's not an explicit thing - it's having been part of an entire culture where being brahmin means I'm better than those people

Employee retention matters. I spend a lot of time, energy, and yes, money, in getting people up to speed, developing trust in each other, and working cohesively as a team. It's a delicate thing, this balance, and the last thing I need is casual racism or gender-issues into the mix. 

Cheers

(•) In the 70s, I pretty freely using the n-word. I grew up in a fairly disconnected part of India at the time (Kanpur), and we, literally, did not know (and heck, hadn't ever seen) any african-americans - and about the only context around this we had was some spectacularly racist faux-westerns by an author named J.T.Edson. Fast-forward a few years, to my graduate-school days in the U.S at Notre Dame, and my (pretty rapid) discovery that, well, I probably shouldn't.



On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:38 PM, Roman Galeev <[hidden email]> wrote:
The worst part of it that nobody is offended at this very moment, but Fred speaks for people who could be offended, in his opinion. But could they, or could they not nobody knows (except them, but they are not present). Maybe the same people could be offended by other words as well, how do we know? And should we really care (having quite offensive names in the wild already)? Should we run all possible project names through the council of these people?

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:56 PM, Zachary Kessin <[hidden email]> wrote:
I would like to second what Fred said. I just went through something like this in a different context and I have to say "its not reasonable that <Group> is offended" is a pretty bad apology. 

Zach Kessin - CEO Finch Software
I boost sales with retail chatbots for fashion and cosmetics
<a href="tel:+972%2054-234-3956" value="+972542343956" target="_blank">+972 54 234 3956 / <a href="tel:+44%2020%203734%209790" value="+442037349790" target="_blank">+44 203 734 9790 / <a href="tel:(617)%20778-7213" value="+16177787213" target="_blank">+1 617 778 7213

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 5:46 PM, Fred Hebert <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:29 AM, <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 2018年2月12日月曜日 10時16分51秒 JST Fred Hebert wrote:
> Intent does not matter.

No.

Fred, I have enormous respect for you and have gone several rounds with you on several subjects, each time having learned something for my own part. On technical subjects, anyway.

But... INTENT

You are demonstraby wrong already. Just stop. You will not win against the weight of history.

I am not wrong in not wanting to ever introduce this library in my god damn workplace. Because I know and have worked with people who do find this kind of shit offensive.

I'm happy you live in a place and in a context where everyone is fine with that. This has not been the reality of the people I have spent time with both professionally and personally.
 

This is becoming some SJW ridiculousness already, not because you care about that but because of the ambient temperature. I know SJW flippancy is not your intent, but that is the only place this winds up going these days. That is not a small failure -- it quickly becomes a systemic one, not just in a concurrent software system of ephemeral importance, but a concrete socio-economic one of critical importance that pays for all the other parties we enjoy.

I'm surprised that you find the idea that using a term that can very reasonably be construed as racist is SJW flippancy.

Let's take a quick look by looking at first definitions on Urban Dictionary for a game. I picked random animal names or short terms:
 Oh hm. Sorry I guess the usage is really forgotten for that one.

Intent does not matter is not me saying that the author of the lib is racist or ill-intended. It's me saying that no matter the original intent, the consequences will be the result of the reader's interpretation. Look this is even a principle in literary review called The death of the author (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_the_Author):

In his essay, Barthes argues against the method of reading and criticism that relies on aspects of the author's identity—their political views, historical context, religion, ethnicity, psychology, or other biographical or personal attributes—to distill meaning from the author's work. In this type of criticism, the experiences and biases of the author serve as a definitive "explanation" of the text. For Barthes, this method of reading may be apparently tidy and convenient but is actually sloppy and flawed: "To give a text an author" and assign a single, corresponding interpretation to it "is to impose a limit on that text".

[...]

In a well-known quotation, Barthes draws an analogy between text and textiles, declaring that a "text is a tissue [or fabric] of quotations", drawn from "innumerable centers of culture", rather than from one, individual experience. The essential meaning of a work depends on the impressions of the reader, rather than the "passions" or "tastes" of the writer; "a text's unity lies not in its origins", or its creator, "but in its destination", or its audience.

The whole point is that you cannot reasonably expect the author to be around to give meaning and maintain these things. What the author intends is not relevant in the long run because the interpretation can get away from it. It's like in satire: good satire/irony/sarcasm must be visible and enough in your face that it won't be construed as supporting the system you are attempting to criticize.

Intent does not matter.



Riddle me this:
If we cannot undersand enough about the software systems that WE WRITE OURSELVES that we need the "let it crash" mentality, how is it that we somehow understand to a manifest degree the economic and social value systems (which are profoundly more complex than our petty software systems) that we can dictate value within them? By what restart mechanism is this all brought back to a "reasonble default"?

I am sincerely desirous of an answer here, because I have a profound respect for your intellect but cannot imagine that you have properly considered the alternatives or where this path of discourse winds up eventualy going.

I very much stand by intent does not matter. It matters to me in this context and I do not yet judge Valery negatively, I trust that raccoon was indeed the original name intent. It does not mean that other people will do the same. Expecting other people to do the same is downright absurd and foolish. If your entire position relies on explaining every single person the origin of the name for things to go well, you have taken the losing battle of tilting at windmills. This is the hill you die on. What I'm doing here is giving a really fucking serious warning of how much windmill tilting you'll get into.

If you want me to go by the Let it Crash maxim, the idea of let it crash is to not try to handle all the errors and letting them fail early and often. Start from a clean slate rather than trying to correct corrupted state. What I'm doing here is trying to crash this stupid ass project name as early as possible so the author doesn't get stuck trying to handle every error coming their way in the near future. Look at it this way. You even have a bunch of terms for it in this single thread: SJW Flippancy. Loic brought up identity politics. Roman is trying make a tally of who is it who's offended in the first place as if that made any difference the moment this gets out of here.

If you can't see that as a warning sign when this discussion is taking place within mailing list regulars, what will be a reasonable waning sign to you?

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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Sashan Govender
In reply to this post by Fred Hebert-2


On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 12:18 AM Fred Hebert <[hidden email]> wrote:
Are you aware of the connotations coming with that name?


A type of cheese?
 

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Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Stefan Strigler-3
In reply to this post by Jesper Louis Andersen-2


On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:01 PM Jesper Louis Andersen <[hidden email]> wrote:
There is also "Maine Coon", which is a cat breed.

And there is also me who thinks you CAN NOT be serious. I mean seriously WTF?

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