Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.

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Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.

arif-2
Yesterday I attended the Code Beam Lite conference in Bologna, Italy. It
ended with a keynote by an Elixir Core Team member, entitled "Elixir
Architecture 101".

At the end of an otherwise interesting talk, which started with the
presenter saying he hated Erlang (some in the audience found it funny)
and in which he occasionally made fun of Joe and of the perceived
shortcomings of Erlang, I couldn’t help wonder where Elixir was in all
that talk, since the “Elixir” architecture presented, was practically
OTP.

I find this very much in bad taste and not helpful towards a beneficial
sharing and spreading of knowledge. I don’t know if the Code of Conduct
of the Code Beam conferences contemplates this, but I would favour
forbidding it.

If Elixir has something good to offer, and I think it has, let its
community showcase that, advance the common good and knowledge, and not
promote its cause through what, in my eyes, would amount to plagiarism,
viz. letting things pass for Elixir, when they are Erlang/OTP, nor
through ridiculing anyone or anything, least of all the very things or
persons that made it even possible. It not only looks childish to me, I
believe it is also damaging to the many excellent minds in the very
Elixir community.

Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please
demand it.
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Re: Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.

Bryan Paxton
 Who was the speaker?

On 3/23/19 11:13 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

> Yesterday I attended the Code Beam Lite conference in Bologna, Italy. It
> ended with a keynote by an Elixir Core Team member, entitled "Elixir
> Architecture 101".
>
> At the end of an otherwise interesting talk, which started with the
> presenter saying he hated Erlang (some in the audience found it funny)
> and in which he occasionally made fun of Joe and of the perceived
> shortcomings of Erlang, I couldn’t help wonder where Elixir was in all
> that talk, since the “Elixir” architecture presented, was practically
> OTP.
>
> I find this very much in bad taste and not helpful towards a beneficial
> sharing and spreading of knowledge. I don’t know if the Code of Conduct
> of the Code Beam conferences contemplates this, but I would favour
> forbidding it.
>
> If Elixir has something good to offer, and I think it has, let its
> community showcase that, advance the common good and knowledge, and not
> promote its cause through what, in my eyes, would amount to plagiarism,
> viz. letting things pass for Elixir, when they are Erlang/OTP, nor
> through ridiculing anyone or anything, least of all the very things or
> persons that made it even possible. It not only looks childish to me, I
> believe it is also damaging to the many excellent minds in the very
> Elixir community.
>
> Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please
> demand it.
> _______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
_______________________________________________
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
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Re: Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.

Oliver Korpilla
I'd prefer no calling out of the name, what good will that do?
 
Gesendet: Samstag, 23. März 2019 um 17:36 Uhr
Von: "Bryan Paxton" <[hidden email]>
An: [hidden email], [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [erlang-questions] Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.
 Who was the speaker?

On 3/23/19 11:13 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
> Yesterday I attended the Code Beam Lite conference in Bologna, Italy. It
> ended with a keynote by an Elixir Core Team member, entitled "Elixir
> Architecture 101".
>
> At the end of an otherwise interesting talk, which started with the
> presenter saying he hated Erlang (some in the audience found it funny)
> and in which he occasionally made fun of Joe and of the perceived
> shortcomings of Erlang, I couldn’t help wonder where Elixir was in all
> that talk, since the “Elixir” architecture presented, was practically
> OTP.
>
> I find this very much in bad taste and not helpful towards a beneficial
> sharing and spreading of knowledge. I don’t know if the Code of Conduct
> of the Code Beam conferences contemplates this, but I would favour
> forbidding it.
>
> If Elixir has something good to offer, and I think it has, let its
> community showcase that, advance the common good and knowledge, and not
> promote its cause through what, in my eyes, would amount to plagiarism,
> viz. letting things pass for Elixir, when they are Erlang/OTP, nor
> through ridiculing anyone or anything, least of all the very things or
> persons that made it even possible. It not only looks childish to me, I
> believe it is also damaging to the many excellent minds in the very
> Elixir community.
>
> Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please
> demand it.
> _______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
_______________________________________________
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions

_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
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Re: Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.

Bryan Paxton

 I hear ya... I was being lazy :) I see who it is and I have to wonder if some of what he said was in gest? Maybe just didn't come across right? I hope so :(


--

Bryan


 

On 3/23/19 11:44 AM, Oliver Korpilla wrote:
I'd prefer no calling out of the name, what good will that do?
 
Gesendet: Samstag, 23. März 2019 um 17:36 Uhr
Von: "Bryan Paxton" [hidden email]
An: [hidden email], [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [erlang-questions] Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.
 Who was the speaker?

On 3/23/19 11:13 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
> Yesterday I attended the Code Beam Lite conference in Bologna, Italy. It
> ended with a keynote by an Elixir Core Team member, entitled "Elixir
> Architecture 101".
>
> At the end of an otherwise interesting talk, which started with the
> presenter saying he hated Erlang (some in the audience found it funny)
> and in which he occasionally made fun of Joe and of the perceived
> shortcomings of Erlang, I couldn’t help wonder where Elixir was in all
> that talk, since the “Elixir” architecture presented, was practically
> OTP.
>
> I find this very much in bad taste and not helpful towards a beneficial
> sharing and spreading of knowledge. I don’t know if the Code of Conduct
> of the Code Beam conferences contemplates this, but I would favour
> forbidding it.
>
> If Elixir has something good to offer, and I think it has, let its
> community showcase that, advance the common good and knowledge, and not
> promote its cause through what, in my eyes, would amount to plagiarism,
> viz. letting things pass for Elixir, when they are Erlang/OTP, nor
> through ridiculing anyone or anything, least of all the very things or
> persons that made it even possible. It not only looks childish to me, I
> believe it is also damaging to the many excellent minds in the very
> Elixir community.
>
> Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please
> demand it.
> _______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
_______________________________________________
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions

_______________________________________________
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
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Re: Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.

Oliver Korpilla
I hear you. One can only hope. Those things always happen, though, almost invariably. I guess it has mostly to do with the desire to carve one's own niche.
 
Gesendet: Samstag, 23. März 2019 um 17:46 Uhr
Von: "Bryan Paxton" <[hidden email]>
An: "Oliver Korpilla" <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email], [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: Aw: Re: [erlang-questions] Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.

 I hear ya... I was being lazy :) I see who it is and I have to wonder if some of what he said was in gest? Maybe just didn't come across right? I hope so :(

 

--

Bryan

 

 

On 3/23/19 11:44 AM, Oliver Korpilla wrote:
I'd prefer no calling out of the name, what good will that do?
 
Gesendet: Samstag, 23. März 2019 um 17:36 Uhr
Von: "Bryan Paxton" [hidden email]
An: [hidden email], [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [erlang-questions] Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.
 Who was the speaker?

On 3/23/19 11:13 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
> Yesterday I attended the Code Beam Lite conference in Bologna, Italy. It
> ended with a keynote by an Elixir Core Team member, entitled "Elixir
> Architecture 101".
>
> At the end of an otherwise interesting talk, which started with the
> presenter saying he hated Erlang (some in the audience found it funny)
> and in which he occasionally made fun of Joe and of the perceived
> shortcomings of Erlang, I couldn’t help wonder where Elixir was in all
> that talk, since the “Elixir” architecture presented, was practically
> OTP.
>
> I find this very much in bad taste and not helpful towards a beneficial
> sharing and spreading of knowledge. I don’t know if the Code of Conduct
> of the Code Beam conferences contemplates this, but I would favour
> forbidding it.
>
> If Elixir has something good to offer, and I think it has, let its
> community showcase that, advance the common good and knowledge, and not
> promote its cause through what, in my eyes, would amount to plagiarism,
> viz. letting things pass for Elixir, when they are Erlang/OTP, nor
> through ridiculing anyone or anything, least of all the very things or
> persons that made it even possible. It not only looks childish to me, I
> believe it is also damaging to the many excellent minds in the very
> Elixir community.
>
> Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please
> demand it.
> _______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
_______________________________________________
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions

_______________________________________________
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
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Re: Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.

Bryan Paxton

 FWIW the speaker in question has never come across to me as being hostile towards Erlang, etc. They have always been very laid back, open to ideas, erlang, etc. In fact, I was talking to them about Erlang earlier this week and they encouraged me to talk about Erlang in an Elixir dominated environment :) So, I have to assume that things came across the wrong way due to language barriers, etc.  Jokes in particular get lost in translation easily and can be seen as something hostile or malicious...  The folly of language.

 Then there's always the possibility the talk was a behavioral experiment :)

   But I'm glad we got a line of communication open as that's the only way that squashes these issues. The BEAM communities need group therapy sometimes IMO :)

 There's been a lot of hostility from the Erlang community towards Elixir in the past... and I wonder if the echoes of all that are so ingrained in some of us that we have knee jerk reactions sometimes (i.e., we hear something from an Elixir speaker and absolutely take it the wrong way). Having come from Elixir to Erlang I very much have seen both sides of that coin. I know this much....

 The main thing... Elixir is Erlang, LFE is Elang, Efene is Erlang, Gleam is Erlang, etc.... While from one side it appears Elixir is another language... I don't think many, especially in the Elixir community feel that way... especially core members, syntactical differences aside Elixir is erlang. BEAM on!


--

Bryan


On 3/23/19 11:57 AM, Oliver Korpilla wrote:
I hear you. One can only hope. Those things always happen, though, almost invariably. I guess it has mostly to do with the desire to carve one's own niche.
 
Gesendet: Samstag, 23. März 2019 um 17:46 Uhr
Von: "Bryan Paxton" [hidden email]
An: "Oliver Korpilla" [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email], [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: Aw: Re: [erlang-questions] Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.

 I hear ya... I was being lazy :) I see who it is and I have to wonder if some of what he said was in gest? Maybe just didn't come across right? I hope so :(

 

--

Bryan

 

 

On 3/23/19 11:44 AM, Oliver Korpilla wrote:
I'd prefer no calling out of the name, what good will that do?
 
Gesendet: Samstag, 23. März 2019 um 17:36 Uhr
Von: "Bryan Paxton" [hidden email]
An: [hidden email], [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [erlang-questions] Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.
 Who was the speaker?

On 3/23/19 11:13 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
> Yesterday I attended the Code Beam Lite conference in Bologna, Italy. It
> ended with a keynote by an Elixir Core Team member, entitled "Elixir
> Architecture 101".
>
> At the end of an otherwise interesting talk, which started with the
> presenter saying he hated Erlang (some in the audience found it funny)
> and in which he occasionally made fun of Joe and of the perceived
> shortcomings of Erlang, I couldn’t help wonder where Elixir was in all
> that talk, since the “Elixir” architecture presented, was practically
> OTP.
>
> I find this very much in bad taste and not helpful towards a beneficial
> sharing and spreading of knowledge. I don’t know if the Code of Conduct
> of the Code Beam conferences contemplates this, but I would favour
> forbidding it.
>
> If Elixir has something good to offer, and I think it has, let its
> community showcase that, advance the common good and knowledge, and not
> promote its cause through what, in my eyes, would amount to plagiarism,
> viz. letting things pass for Elixir, when they are Erlang/OTP, nor
> through ridiculing anyone or anything, least of all the very things or
> persons that made it even possible. It not only looks childish to me, I
> believe it is also damaging to the many excellent minds in the very
> Elixir community.
>
> Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please
> demand it.
> _______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
_______________________________________________
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions

_______________________________________________
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
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Re: Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.

arif-2
ok. i’ll take your word for it. it’s quite possible i got it wrong  and i’m sorry to have triggered this then. 
thanks for sharing your thoughts 
Arif



On 23 Mar 2019, at 18:22, Bryan Paxton <[hidden email]> wrote:

 FWIW the speaker in question has never come across to me as being hostile towards Erlang, etc. They have always been very laid back, open to ideas, erlang, etc. In fact, I was talking to them about Erlang earlier this week and they encouraged me to talk about Erlang in an Elixir dominated environment :) So, I have to assume that things came across the wrong way due to language barriers, etc.  Jokes in particular get lost in translation easily and can be seen as something hostile or malicious...  The folly of language.

 Then there's always the possibility the talk was a behavioral experiment :)

   But I'm glad we got a line of communication open as that's the only way that squashes these issues. The BEAM communities need group therapy sometimes IMO :)

 There's been a lot of hostility from the Erlang community towards Elixir in the past... and I wonder if the echoes of all that are so ingrained in some of us that we have knee jerk reactions sometimes (i.e., we hear something from an Elixir speaker and absolutely take it the wrong way). Having come from Elixir to Erlang I very much have seen both sides of that coin. I know this much....

 The main thing... Elixir is Erlang, LFE is Elang, Efene is Erlang, Gleam is Erlang, etc.... While from one side it appears Elixir is another language... I don't think many, especially in the Elixir community feel that way... especially core members, syntactical differences aside Elixir is erlang. BEAM on!


--

Bryan


On 3/23/19 11:57 AM, Oliver Korpilla wrote:
I hear you. One can only hope. Those things always happen, though, almost invariably. I guess it has mostly to do with the desire to carve one's own niche.
 
Gesendet: Samstag, 23. März 2019 um 17:46 Uhr
Von: "Bryan Paxton" [hidden email]
An: "Oliver Korpilla" [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email], [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: Aw: Re: [erlang-questions] Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.

 I hear ya... I was being lazy :) I see who it is and I have to wonder if some of what he said was in gest? Maybe just didn't come across right? I hope so :(

 

--

Bryan

 

 

On 3/23/19 11:44 AM, Oliver Korpilla wrote:
I'd prefer no calling out of the name, what good will that do?
 
Gesendet: Samstag, 23. März 2019 um 17:36 Uhr
Von: "Bryan Paxton" [hidden email]
An: [hidden email], [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [erlang-questions] Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.
 Who was the speaker?

On 3/23/19 11:13 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
> Yesterday I attended the Code Beam Lite conference in Bologna, Italy. It
> ended with a keynote by an Elixir Core Team member, entitled "Elixir
> Architecture 101".
>
> At the end of an otherwise interesting talk, which started with the
> presenter saying he hated Erlang (some in the audience found it funny)
> and in which he occasionally made fun of Joe and of the perceived
> shortcomings of Erlang, I couldn’t help wonder where Elixir was in all
> that talk, since the “Elixir” architecture presented, was practically
> OTP.
>
> I find this very much in bad taste and not helpful towards a beneficial
> sharing and spreading of knowledge. I don’t know if the Code of Conduct
> of the Code Beam conferences contemplates this, but I would favour
> forbidding it.
>
> If Elixir has something good to offer, and I think it has, let its
> community showcase that, advance the common good and knowledge, and not
> promote its cause through what, in my eyes, would amount to plagiarism,
> viz. letting things pass for Elixir, when they are Erlang/OTP, nor
> through ridiculing anyone or anything, least of all the very things or
> persons that made it even possible. It not only looks childish to me, I
> believe it is also damaging to the many excellent minds in the very
> Elixir community.
>
> Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please
> demand it.
> _______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
_______________________________________________
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions

_______________________________________________
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
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Re: Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.

Bryan Paxton

 No, no... no triggering happened :) It's better to talk than to internalize... so I'm glad you brought this up. Communication is the only way to resolve misunderstanding :) :heart:

--

Bryan


On 3/23/19 1:15 PM, arif wrote:
ok. i’ll take your word for it. it’s quite possible i got it wrong  and i’m sorry to have triggered this then. 
thanks for sharing your thoughts 
Arif



On 23 Mar 2019, at 18:22, Bryan Paxton <[hidden email]> wrote:

 FWIW the speaker in question has never come across to me as being hostile towards Erlang, etc. They have always been very laid back, open to ideas, erlang, etc. In fact, I was talking to them about Erlang earlier this week and they encouraged me to talk about Erlang in an Elixir dominated environment :) So, I have to assume that things came across the wrong way due to language barriers, etc.  Jokes in particular get lost in translation easily and can be seen as something hostile or malicious...  The folly of language.

 Then there's always the possibility the talk was a behavioral experiment :)

   But I'm glad we got a line of communication open as that's the only way that squashes these issues. The BEAM communities need group therapy sometimes IMO :)

 There's been a lot of hostility from the Erlang community towards Elixir in the past... and I wonder if the echoes of all that are so ingrained in some of us that we have knee jerk reactions sometimes (i.e., we hear something from an Elixir speaker and absolutely take it the wrong way). Having come from Elixir to Erlang I very much have seen both sides of that coin. I know this much....

 The main thing... Elixir is Erlang, LFE is Elang, Efene is Erlang, Gleam is Erlang, etc.... While from one side it appears Elixir is another language... I don't think many, especially in the Elixir community feel that way... especially core members, syntactical differences aside Elixir is erlang. BEAM on!


--

Bryan


On 3/23/19 11:57 AM, Oliver Korpilla wrote:
I hear you. One can only hope. Those things always happen, though, almost invariably. I guess it has mostly to do with the desire to carve one's own niche.
 
Gesendet: Samstag, 23. März 2019 um 17:46 Uhr
Von: "Bryan Paxton" [hidden email]
An: "Oliver Korpilla" [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email], [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: Aw: Re: [erlang-questions] Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.

 I hear ya... I was being lazy :) I see who it is and I have to wonder if some of what he said was in gest? Maybe just didn't come across right? I hope so :(

 

--

Bryan

 

 

On 3/23/19 11:44 AM, Oliver Korpilla wrote:
I'd prefer no calling out of the name, what good will that do?
 
Gesendet: Samstag, 23. März 2019 um 17:36 Uhr
Von: "Bryan Paxton" [hidden email]
An: [hidden email], [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [erlang-questions] Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.
 Who was the speaker?

On 3/23/19 11:13 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
> Yesterday I attended the Code Beam Lite conference in Bologna, Italy. It
> ended with a keynote by an Elixir Core Team member, entitled "Elixir
> Architecture 101".
>
> At the end of an otherwise interesting talk, which started with the
> presenter saying he hated Erlang (some in the audience found it funny)
> and in which he occasionally made fun of Joe and of the perceived
> shortcomings of Erlang, I couldn’t help wonder where Elixir was in all
> that talk, since the “Elixir” architecture presented, was practically
> OTP.
>
> I find this very much in bad taste and not helpful towards a beneficial
> sharing and spreading of knowledge. I don’t know if the Code of Conduct
> of the Code Beam conferences contemplates this, but I would favour
> forbidding it.
>
> If Elixir has something good to offer, and I think it has, let its
> community showcase that, advance the common good and knowledge, and not
> promote its cause through what, in my eyes, would amount to plagiarism,
> viz. letting things pass for Elixir, when they are Erlang/OTP, nor
> through ridiculing anyone or anything, least of all the very things or
> persons that made it even possible. It not only looks childish to me, I
> believe it is also damaging to the many excellent minds in the very
> Elixir community.
>
> Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please
> demand it.
> _______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
_______________________________________________
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions

_______________________________________________
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
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Re: Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.

alex@xbasics.com

WTF!  They are messing up with Joe?!  No triggering...internalize what?  What's his name and address?!!  I'm flying in.  Need a bottle of scotch and a map in that same order.  LOL!

On 3/23/19 2:22 PM, Bryan Paxton wrote:

 No, no... no triggering happened :) It's better to talk than to internalize... so I'm glad you brought this up. Communication is the only way to resolve misunderstanding :) :heart:

--

Bryan


On 3/23/19 1:15 PM, arif wrote:
ok. i’ll take your word for it. it’s quite possible i got it wrong  and i’m sorry to have triggered this then. 
thanks for sharing your thoughts 
Arif



On 23 Mar 2019, at 18:22, Bryan Paxton <[hidden email]> wrote:

 FWIW the speaker in question has never come across to me as being hostile towards Erlang, etc. They have always been very laid back, open to ideas, erlang, etc. In fact, I was talking to them about Erlang earlier this week and they encouraged me to talk about Erlang in an Elixir dominated environment :) So, I have to assume that things came across the wrong way due to language barriers, etc.  Jokes in particular get lost in translation easily and can be seen as something hostile or malicious...  The folly of language.

 Then there's always the possibility the talk was a behavioral experiment :)

   But I'm glad we got a line of communication open as that's the only way that squashes these issues. The BEAM communities need group therapy sometimes IMO :)

 There's been a lot of hostility from the Erlang community towards Elixir in the past... and I wonder if the echoes of all that are so ingrained in some of us that we have knee jerk reactions sometimes (i.e., we hear something from an Elixir speaker and absolutely take it the wrong way). Having come from Elixir to Erlang I very much have seen both sides of that coin. I know this much....

 The main thing... Elixir is Erlang, LFE is Elang, Efene is Erlang, Gleam is Erlang, etc.... While from one side it appears Elixir is another language... I don't think many, especially in the Elixir community feel that way... especially core members, syntactical differences aside Elixir is erlang. BEAM on!


--

Bryan


On 3/23/19 11:57 AM, Oliver Korpilla wrote:
I hear you. One can only hope. Those things always happen, though, almost invariably. I guess it has mostly to do with the desire to carve one's own niche.
 
Gesendet: Samstag, 23. März 2019 um 17:46 Uhr
Von: "Bryan Paxton" [hidden email]
An: "Oliver Korpilla" [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email], [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: Aw: Re: [erlang-questions] Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.

 I hear ya... I was being lazy :) I see who it is and I have to wonder if some of what he said was in gest? Maybe just didn't come across right? I hope so :(

 

--

Bryan

 

 

On 3/23/19 11:44 AM, Oliver Korpilla wrote:
I'd prefer no calling out of the name, what good will that do?
 
Gesendet: Samstag, 23. März 2019 um 17:36 Uhr
Von: "Bryan Paxton" [hidden email]
An: [hidden email], [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [erlang-questions] Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.
 Who was the speaker?

On 3/23/19 11:13 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
> Yesterday I attended the Code Beam Lite conference in Bologna, Italy. It
> ended with a keynote by an Elixir Core Team member, entitled "Elixir
> Architecture 101".
>
> At the end of an otherwise interesting talk, which started with the
> presenter saying he hated Erlang (some in the audience found it funny)
> and in which he occasionally made fun of Joe and of the perceived
> shortcomings of Erlang, I couldn’t help wonder where Elixir was in all
> that talk, since the “Elixir” architecture presented, was practically
> OTP.
>
> I find this very much in bad taste and not helpful towards a beneficial
> sharing and spreading of knowledge. I don’t know if the Code of Conduct
> of the Code Beam conferences contemplates this, but I would favour
> forbidding it.
>
> If Elixir has something good to offer, and I think it has, let its
> community showcase that, advance the common good and knowledge, and not
> promote its cause through what, in my eyes, would amount to plagiarism,
> viz. letting things pass for Elixir, when they are Erlang/OTP, nor
> through ridiculing anyone or anything, least of all the very things or
> persons that made it even possible. It not only looks childish to me, I
> believe it is also damaging to the many excellent minds in the very
> Elixir community.
>
> Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please
> demand it.
> _______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
_______________________________________________
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions

_______________________________________________
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions

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Re: Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.

Bryan Paxton

  You need a lagom bottles of scotch :)

On 3/23/19 2:21 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

WTF!  They are messing up with Joe?!  No triggering...internalize what?  What's his name and address?!!  I'm flying in.  Need a bottle of scotch and a map in that same order.  LOL!

On 3/23/19 2:22 PM, Bryan Paxton wrote:

 No, no... no triggering happened :) It's better to talk than to internalize... so I'm glad you brought this up. Communication is the only way to resolve misunderstanding :) :heart:

--

Bryan


On 3/23/19 1:15 PM, arif wrote:
ok. i’ll take your word for it. it’s quite possible i got it wrong  and i’m sorry to have triggered this then. 
thanks for sharing your thoughts 
Arif



On 23 Mar 2019, at 18:22, Bryan Paxton <[hidden email]> wrote:

 FWIW the speaker in question has never come across to me as being hostile towards Erlang, etc. They have always been very laid back, open to ideas, erlang, etc. In fact, I was talking to them about Erlang earlier this week and they encouraged me to talk about Erlang in an Elixir dominated environment :) So, I have to assume that things came across the wrong way due to language barriers, etc.  Jokes in particular get lost in translation easily and can be seen as something hostile or malicious...  The folly of language.

 Then there's always the possibility the talk was a behavioral experiment :)

   But I'm glad we got a line of communication open as that's the only way that squashes these issues. The BEAM communities need group therapy sometimes IMO :)

 There's been a lot of hostility from the Erlang community towards Elixir in the past... and I wonder if the echoes of all that are so ingrained in some of us that we have knee jerk reactions sometimes (i.e., we hear something from an Elixir speaker and absolutely take it the wrong way). Having come from Elixir to Erlang I very much have seen both sides of that coin. I know this much....

 The main thing... Elixir is Erlang, LFE is Elang, Efene is Erlang, Gleam is Erlang, etc.... While from one side it appears Elixir is another language... I don't think many, especially in the Elixir community feel that way... especially core members, syntactical differences aside Elixir is erlang. BEAM on!


--

Bryan


On 3/23/19 11:57 AM, Oliver Korpilla wrote:
I hear you. One can only hope. Those things always happen, though, almost invariably. I guess it has mostly to do with the desire to carve one's own niche.
 
Gesendet: Samstag, 23. März 2019 um 17:46 Uhr
Von: "Bryan Paxton" [hidden email]
An: "Oliver Korpilla" [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email], [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: Aw: Re: [erlang-questions] Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.

 I hear ya... I was being lazy :) I see who it is and I have to wonder if some of what he said was in gest? Maybe just didn't come across right? I hope so :(

 

--

Bryan

 

 

On 3/23/19 11:44 AM, Oliver Korpilla wrote:
I'd prefer no calling out of the name, what good will that do?
 
Gesendet: Samstag, 23. März 2019 um 17:36 Uhr
Von: "Bryan Paxton" [hidden email]
An: [hidden email], [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [erlang-questions] Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.
 Who was the speaker?

On 3/23/19 11:13 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
> Yesterday I attended the Code Beam Lite conference in Bologna, Italy. It
> ended with a keynote by an Elixir Core Team member, entitled "Elixir
> Architecture 101".
>
> At the end of an otherwise interesting talk, which started with the
> presenter saying he hated Erlang (some in the audience found it funny)
> and in which he occasionally made fun of Joe and of the perceived
> shortcomings of Erlang, I couldn’t help wonder where Elixir was in all
> that talk, since the “Elixir” architecture presented, was practically
> OTP.
>
> I find this very much in bad taste and not helpful towards a beneficial
> sharing and spreading of knowledge. I don’t know if the Code of Conduct
> of the Code Beam conferences contemplates this, but I would favour
> forbidding it.
>
> If Elixir has something good to offer, and I think it has, let its
> community showcase that, advance the common good and knowledge, and not
> promote its cause through what, in my eyes, would amount to plagiarism,
> viz. letting things pass for Elixir, when they are Erlang/OTP, nor
> through ridiculing anyone or anything, least of all the very things or
> persons that made it even possible. It not only looks childish to me, I
> believe it is also damaging to the many excellent minds in the very
> Elixir community.
>
> Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please
> demand it.
> _______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
_______________________________________________
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions

_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions

_______________________________________________
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Re: Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.

Joe Armstrong-2
Well I can't really comment on the talk since I wasn't there - so all
I can comment
on are the comments I've read here.

I for one welcome all the things the Elixir folks are doing - but I
have noticed the following:

- Elixir folks are re-using Erlang libraries
- Erlang folks are not (it seems to me) reusing Elixir libraries

The "how to call Erlang from Elixir" documentation is great - the
opposite "how to call Elixir from Elixir" is not (or have I missed something)

Things like nerves, scenic, Phoenix etc. look great to me - but seem to be used
almost exclusively by Elixir folks.

Has anybody made, for example, a pure Erlang interface to scenic?

As for things said in talks that upset people - I have done this myself
on several occasions - you say something that gets misinterpreted
and then everybody gets upset and they don't talk about the subject
of the talk but about the thing that annoyed them.

Andrea mailed me off-list with an apology - funny really when somebody
mails you apologising for something that you didn't even know had happened
but nice of him to do so ...

I'm just curious - has anybody made a pure Erlang interface to scenic?

And since this is the erlang list - how about joining the elixir forum
so you can get
an idea of what's going on over there - lot's of fun stuff I see

Cheers

/Joe


On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 8:27 PM Bryan Paxton <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>   You need a lagom bottles of scotch :)
>
> On 3/23/19 2:21 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>
> WTF!  They are messing up with Joe?!  No triggering...internalize what?  What's his name and address?!!  I'm flying in.  Need a bottle of scotch and a map in that same order.  LOL!
>
> On 3/23/19 2:22 PM, Bryan Paxton wrote:
>
>  No, no... no triggering happened :) It's better to talk than to internalize... so I'm glad you brought this up. Communication is the only way to resolve misunderstanding :) :heart:
>
> --
>
> Bryan
>
>
> On 3/23/19 1:15 PM, arif wrote:
>
> ok. i’ll take your word for it. it’s quite possible i got it wrong  and i’m sorry to have triggered this then.
> thanks for sharing your thoughts
> Arif
>
>
>
> On 23 Mar 2019, at 18:22, Bryan Paxton <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>  FWIW the speaker in question has never come across to me as being hostile towards Erlang, etc. They have always been very laid back, open to ideas, erlang, etc. In fact, I was talking to them about Erlang earlier this week and they encouraged me to talk about Erlang in an Elixir dominated environment :) So, I have to assume that things came across the wrong way due to language barriers, etc.  Jokes in particular get lost in translation easily and can be seen as something hostile or malicious...  The folly of language.
>
>  Then there's always the possibility the talk was a behavioral experiment :)
>
>    But I'm glad we got a line of communication open as that's the only way that squashes these issues. The BEAM communities need group therapy sometimes IMO :)
>
>  There's been a lot of hostility from the Erlang community towards Elixir in the past... and I wonder if the echoes of all that are so ingrained in some of us that we have knee jerk reactions sometimes (i.e., we hear something from an Elixir speaker and absolutely take it the wrong way). Having come from Elixir to Erlang I very much have seen both sides of that coin. I know this much....
>
>  The main thing... Elixir is Erlang, LFE is Elang, Efene is Erlang, Gleam is Erlang, etc.... While from one side it appears Elixir is another language... I don't think many, especially in the Elixir community feel that way... especially core members, syntactical differences aside Elixir is erlang. BEAM on!
>
>
> --
>
> Bryan
>
>
> On 3/23/19 11:57 AM, Oliver Korpilla wrote:
>
> I hear you. One can only hope. Those things always happen, though, almost invariably. I guess it has mostly to do with the desire to carve one's own niche.
>
> Gesendet: Samstag, 23. März 2019 um 17:46 Uhr
> Von: "Bryan Paxton" <[hidden email]>
> An: "Oliver Korpilla" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: [hidden email], [hidden email]
> Betreff: Re: Aw: Re: [erlang-questions] Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.
>
>  I hear ya... I was being lazy :) I see who it is and I have to wonder if some of what he said was in gest? Maybe just didn't come across right? I hope so :(
>
>
>
> --
>
> Bryan
>
>
>
>
>
> On 3/23/19 11:44 AM, Oliver Korpilla wrote:
>
> I'd prefer no calling out of the name, what good will that do?
>
> Gesendet: Samstag, 23. März 2019 um 17:36 Uhr
> Von: "Bryan Paxton" <[hidden email]>
> An: [hidden email], [hidden email]
> Betreff: Re: [erlang-questions] Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.
>  Who was the speaker?
>
> On 3/23/19 11:13 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
> > Yesterday I attended the Code Beam Lite conference in Bologna, Italy. It
> > ended with a keynote by an Elixir Core Team member, entitled "Elixir
> > Architecture 101".
> >
> > At the end of an otherwise interesting talk, which started with the
> > presenter saying he hated Erlang (some in the audience found it funny)
> > and in which he occasionally made fun of Joe and of the perceived
> > shortcomings of Erlang, I couldn’t help wonder where Elixir was in all
> > that talk, since the “Elixir” architecture presented, was practically
> > OTP.
> >
> > I find this very much in bad taste and not helpful towards a beneficial
> > sharing and spreading of knowledge. I don’t know if the Code of Conduct
> > of the Code Beam conferences contemplates this, but I would favour
> > forbidding it.
> >
> > If Elixir has something good to offer, and I think it has, let its
> > community showcase that, advance the common good and knowledge, and not
> > promote its cause through what, in my eyes, would amount to plagiarism,
> > viz. letting things pass for Elixir, when they are Erlang/OTP, nor
> > through ridiculing anyone or anything, least of all the very things or
> > persons that made it even possible. It not only looks childish to me, I
> > believe it is also damaging to the many excellent minds in the very
> > Elixir community.
> >
> > Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please
> > demand it.
> > _______________________________________________
> > erlang-questions mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
> _______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
>
> _______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
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Re: Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.

dieter
Hi,
this discussion turns out to be very nice and uplifting.
A very fine example how problems can be solved!

Regarding nerves: this is on my list of things to try, on the way I might also peek a bit into elixir.

Regards,
Dieter

Am 24. März 2019 11:40:34 MEZ schrieb Joe Armstrong <[hidden email]>:
Well I can't really comment on the talk since I wasn't there - so all
I can comment
on are the comments I've read here.

I for one welcome all the things the Elixir folks are doing - but I
have noticed the following:

- Elixir folks are re-using Erlang libraries
- Erlang folks are not (it seems to me) reusing Elixir libraries

The "how to call Erlang from Elixir" documentation is great - the
opposite "how to call Elixir from Elixir" is not (or have I missed something)

Things like nerves, scenic, Phoenix etc. look great to me - but seem to be used
almost exclusively by Elixir folks.

Has anybody made, for example, a pure Erlang interface to scenic?

As for things said in talks that upset people - I have done this myself
on several occasions - you say something that gets misinterpreted
and then everybody gets upset and they don't talk about the subject
of the talk but about the thing that annoyed them.

Andrea mailed me off-list with an apology - funny really when somebody
mails you apologising for something that you didn't even know had happened
but nice of him to do so ...

I'm just curious - has anybody made a pure Erlang interface to scenic?

And since this is the erlang list - how about joining the elixir forum
so you can get
an idea of what's going on over there - lot's of fun stuff I see

Cheers

/Joe


On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 8:27 PM Bryan Paxton <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
You need a lagom bottles of scotch :)

On 3/23/19 2:21 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

WTF! They are messing up with Joe?! No triggering...internalize what? What's his name and address?!! I'm flying in. Need a bottle of scotch and a map in that same order. LOL!

On 3/23/19 2:22 PM, Bryan Paxton wrote:

No, no... no triggering happened :) It's better to talk than to internalize... so I'm glad you brought this up. Communication is the only way to resolve misunderstanding :) :heart:

--

Bryan


On 3/23/19 1:15 PM, arif wrote:

ok. i’ll take your word for it. it’s quite possible i got it wrong and i’m sorry to have triggered this then.
thanks for sharing your thoughts
Arif



On 23 Mar 2019, at 18:22, Bryan Paxton <[hidden email]> wrote:

FWIW the speaker in question has never come across to me as being hostile towards Erlang, etc. They have always been very laid back, open to ideas, erlang, etc. In fact, I was talking to them about Erlang earlier this week and they encouraged me to talk about Erlang in an Elixir dominated environment :) So, I have to assume that things came across the wrong way due to language barriers, etc. Jokes in particular get lost in translation easily and can be seen as something hostile or malicious... The folly of language.

Then there's always the possibility the talk was a behavioral experiment :)

But I'm glad we got a line of communication open as that's the only way that squashes these issues. The BEAM communities need group therapy sometimes IMO :)

There's been a lot of hostility from the Erlang community towards Elixir in the past... and I wonder if the echoes of all that are so ingrained in some of us that we have knee jerk reactions sometimes (i.e., we hear something from an Elixir speaker and absolutely take it the wrong way). Having come from Elixir to Erlang I very much have seen both sides of that coin. I know this much....

The main thing... Elixir is Erlang, LFE is Elang, Efene is Erlang, Gleam is Erlang, etc.... While from one side it appears Elixir is another language... I don't think many, especially in the Elixir community feel that way... especially core members, syntactical differences aside Elixir is erlang. BEAM on!


--

Bryan


On 3/23/19 11:57 AM, Oliver Korpilla wrote:

I hear you. One can only hope. Those things always happen, though, almost invariably. I guess it has mostly to do with the desire to carve one's own niche.

Gesendet: Samstag, 23. März 2019 um 17:46 Uhr
Von: "Bryan Paxton" <[hidden email]>
An: "Oliver Korpilla" <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email], [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: Aw: Re: [erlang-questions] Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.

I hear ya... I was being lazy :) I see who it is and I have to wonder if some of what he said was in gest? Maybe just didn't come across right? I hope so :(



--

Bryan





On 3/23/19 11:44 AM, Oliver Korpilla wrote:

I'd prefer no calling out of the name, what good will that do?

Gesendet: Samstag, 23. März 2019 um 17:36 Uhr
Von: "Bryan Paxton" <[hidden email]>
An: [hidden email], [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [erlang-questions] Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.
Who was the speaker?

On 3/23/19 11:13 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
Yesterday I attended the Code Beam Lite conference in Bologna, Italy. It
ended with a keynote by an Elixir Core Team member, entitled "Elixir
Architecture 101".

At the end of an otherwise interesting talk, which started with the
presenter saying he hated Erlang (some in the audience found it funny)
and in which he occasionally made fun of Joe and of the perceived
shortcomings of Erlang, I couldn’t help wonder where Elixir was in all
that talk, since the “Elixir” architecture presented, was practically
OTP.

I find this very much in bad taste and not helpful towards a beneficial
sharing and spreading of knowledge. I don’t know if the Code of Conduct
of the Code Beam conferences contemplates this, but I would favour
forbidding it.

If Elixir has something good to offer, and I think it has, let its
community showcase that, advance the common good and knowledge, and not
promote its cause through what, in my eyes, would amount to plagiarism,
viz. letting things pass for Elixir, when they are Erlang/OTP, nor
through ridiculing anyone or anything, least of all the very things or
persons that made it even possible. It not only looks childish to me, I
believe it is also damaging to the many excellent minds in the very
Elixir community.

Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please
demand it.
erlang-questions mailing list
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Re: Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.

Fred Hebert-2
In reply to this post by Joe Armstrong-2
On 03/24, Joe Armstrong wrote:

>I for one welcome all the things the Elixir folks are doing - but I
>have noticed the following:
>
>- Elixir folks are re-using Erlang libraries
>- Erlang folks are not (it seems to me) reusing Elixir libraries
>
>The "how to call Erlang from Elixir" documentation is great - the
>opposite "how to call Elixir from Elixir" is not (or have I missed something)
>
>Things like nerves, scenic, Phoenix etc. look great to me - but seem to be used
>almost exclusively by Elixir folks.
>
>Has anybody made, for example, a pure Erlang interface to scenic?
>

Well, there are some limitations there.

- You can use mix to build your Erlang project and then use Elixir in
  there
- You can use rebar3 with the rebar_mix plugin (along with an Elixir
  install) to build Elixir dependencies (see
  https://github.com/tsloughter/rebar_mix)

But in all cases, you will not necessarily be able to use Elixir code
when it heavily relies on macros at the call-site rather than
internally. So for example, a lot of usage of _plugs_ in Phoenix rely on
macros running within the controller compilation step to read the
declaration and inline them "somewhere??" with no obvious way to do it
without the macros.

That specific stuff that relies on macros in _your Elixir code_ cannot
be ported to work with _your Erlang code_, because, well, we don't have
the same macro mechanisms available. Similarly, Erlang parse transforms
may not remain fully applicable to Elixir modules in the future.

This means that Ecto, which is a huge part of a lot of web framework
usage, also won't be usable for Erlang users, since it is very
macro-dependent.

But if you look at other libraries (or frameworks) such as Raxx
(https://github.com/CrowdHailer/raxx), then this is a framework that is
fully written in Elixir, yet usable from Erlang (there's a demo at
https://github.com/CrowdHailer/greetings-ace-raxx-erlang-example).  
Similarly, a library such as https://github.com/ericmj/decimal for
arbitrary precision arithmetic should be fine to use.

This stuff has been available to rebar3 users since around late 2018, so
I assume it has seen slow adoption due to its being rather new, but we
(rebar3 maintainers) are confident that this bigger interplay is worth
it and should be seeing adoption over time.

Finally, the stuff we're setting up with the Erlang Ecosystem Foundation
is also aimed at making language interplay easier for all languages of
the ecosystem.
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Re: Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.

Tristan Sloughter-4
> Similarly, a library such as https://github.com/ericmj/decimal for
> arbitrary precision arithmetic should be fine to use.

Decimal was one of the one I was going to bring up :). That and Timex and postgrex.

The issue I see is, while these may work fine with `rebar_mix`you have to have Elixir installed. This can be fine on a project that isn't a publicly shared lib, it can be awkward for those publicly shared libs.

While an Elixir user will always already have Erlang, the reverse isn't true.

If Elixir could be a rebar3 dependency this issue would go away and I think increase the chances of Erlang projects utilizing Elixir libs.

Tristan
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Re: Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.

Tristan Sloughter-4
Oh and since Joe brought up the forum, there is an Erlang section https://elixirforum.com/c/erlang-forum

Maybe if someone of the burden of maintaining (labor and costs) the forum were offered to be undertaken by the Foundation they would be open to renaming the entire forum to make it clearer as a beam ecosystem forum even :)
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Re: Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.

Bryan Paxton
In reply to this post by Joe Armstrong-2

It also looks like Andrea is having problems with the mailing list so, I'm going to copy/paste/forward this on his behalf:


-- BEGIN --

Author of the talk here.

I'm sorry if anything I said came off as bad taste or even against the Code of Conduct. I jokingly said I hate Erlang because I knew a lot of members in the audience and I thought it was obvious it was a joke (my bad). I also said "just kidding" but maybe I wasn't clear enough.

I did comment that Erlang's simple_one_for_one is confusing (which I do believe it is). I could probably have expanded on that though, instead of leaving it as a brief remark. But I don't think criticizing Erlang is not allowed, same as I don't think criticizing Elixir is not permitted, and that's why I felt free to make the comment.

I did not make fun of Joe. I included two pictures of him in the presentation that I found on Google, since he is an important and known figure in both Erlang and Elixir communities. One of them was a silly meme about how great hot code swapping is but severely underused. I will reach out to Joe and apologize if I stepped out of line.

Arif, I agree with you that "Elixir Architecture 101" is a bad title and the presentation was definitely about Erlang/OTP first and foremost. That's why I never said "Elixir application" or "this is how you do this in Elixir", but always said "Elixir and Erlang" or "Erlang and Elixir". I'm aware Elixir doesn't exist without Erlang and I'm not at all ungrateful for Erlang. You will also see the same in Elixir documentation and most of its ecosystem: you are not building an "Elixir application" or a "Phoenix application", but an Erlang/OTP one.

In other talks I've often said things that promote the use of Erlang in the Elixir community and that promote the cooperation between the communities, which is something I strongly believe in.

Anyhow, sorry for the mess. I'll do better next time.

Cheers,

Andrea Leopardi

-- END --


On 3/24/19 5:40 AM, Joe Armstrong wrote:
Well I can't really comment on the talk since I wasn't there - so all
I can comment
on are the comments I've read here.

I for one welcome all the things the Elixir folks are doing - but I
have noticed the following:

- Elixir folks are re-using Erlang libraries
- Erlang folks are not (it seems to me) reusing Elixir libraries

The "how to call Erlang from Elixir" documentation is great - the
opposite "how to call Elixir from Elixir" is not (or have I missed something)

Things like nerves, scenic, Phoenix etc. look great to me - but seem to be used
almost exclusively by Elixir folks.

Has anybody made, for example, a pure Erlang interface to scenic?

As for things said in talks that upset people - I have done this myself
on several occasions - you say something that gets misinterpreted
and then everybody gets upset and they don't talk about the subject
of the talk but about the thing that annoyed them.

Andrea mailed me off-list with an apology - funny really when somebody
mails you apologising for something that you didn't even know had happened
but nice of him to do so ...

I'm just curious - has anybody made a pure Erlang interface to scenic?

And since this is the erlang list - how about joining the elixir forum
so you can get
an idea of what's going on over there - lot's of fun stuff I see

Cheers

/Joe


On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 8:27 PM Bryan Paxton [hidden email] wrote:
  You need a lagom bottles of scotch :)

On 3/23/19 2:21 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

WTF!  They are messing up with Joe?!  No triggering...internalize what?  What's his name and address?!!  I'm flying in.  Need a bottle of scotch and a map in that same order.  LOL!

On 3/23/19 2:22 PM, Bryan Paxton wrote:

 No, no... no triggering happened :) It's better to talk than to internalize... so I'm glad you brought this up. Communication is the only way to resolve misunderstanding :) :heart:

--

Bryan


On 3/23/19 1:15 PM, arif wrote:

ok. i’ll take your word for it. it’s quite possible i got it wrong  and i’m sorry to have triggered this then.
thanks for sharing your thoughts
Arif



On 23 Mar 2019, at 18:22, Bryan Paxton [hidden email] wrote:

 FWIW the speaker in question has never come across to me as being hostile towards Erlang, etc. They have always been very laid back, open to ideas, erlang, etc. In fact, I was talking to them about Erlang earlier this week and they encouraged me to talk about Erlang in an Elixir dominated environment :) So, I have to assume that things came across the wrong way due to language barriers, etc.  Jokes in particular get lost in translation easily and can be seen as something hostile or malicious...  The folly of language.

 Then there's always the possibility the talk was a behavioral experiment :)

   But I'm glad we got a line of communication open as that's the only way that squashes these issues. The BEAM communities need group therapy sometimes IMO :)

 There's been a lot of hostility from the Erlang community towards Elixir in the past... and I wonder if the echoes of all that are so ingrained in some of us that we have knee jerk reactions sometimes (i.e., we hear something from an Elixir speaker and absolutely take it the wrong way). Having come from Elixir to Erlang I very much have seen both sides of that coin. I know this much....

 The main thing... Elixir is Erlang, LFE is Elang, Efene is Erlang, Gleam is Erlang, etc.... While from one side it appears Elixir is another language... I don't think many, especially in the Elixir community feel that way... especially core members, syntactical differences aside Elixir is erlang. BEAM on!


--

Bryan


On 3/23/19 11:57 AM, Oliver Korpilla wrote:

I hear you. One can only hope. Those things always happen, though, almost invariably. I guess it has mostly to do with the desire to carve one's own niche.

Gesendet: Samstag, 23. März 2019 um 17:46 Uhr
Von: "Bryan Paxton" [hidden email]
An: "Oliver Korpilla" [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email], [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: Aw: Re: [erlang-questions] Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.

 I hear ya... I was being lazy :) I see who it is and I have to wonder if some of what he said was in gest? Maybe just didn't come across right? I hope so :(



--

Bryan





On 3/23/19 11:44 AM, Oliver Korpilla wrote:

I'd prefer no calling out of the name, what good will that do?

Gesendet: Samstag, 23. März 2019 um 17:36 Uhr
Von: "Bryan Paxton" [hidden email]
An: [hidden email], [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [erlang-questions] Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.
 Who was the speaker?

On 3/23/19 11:13 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
Yesterday I attended the Code Beam Lite conference in Bologna, Italy. It
ended with a keynote by an Elixir Core Team member, entitled "Elixir
Architecture 101".

At the end of an otherwise interesting talk, which started with the
presenter saying he hated Erlang (some in the audience found it funny)
and in which he occasionally made fun of Joe and of the perceived
shortcomings of Erlang, I couldn’t help wonder where Elixir was in all
that talk, since the “Elixir” architecture presented, was practically
OTP.

I find this very much in bad taste and not helpful towards a beneficial
sharing and spreading of knowledge. I don’t know if the Code of Conduct
of the Code Beam conferences contemplates this, but I would favour
forbidding it.

If Elixir has something good to offer, and I think it has, let its
community showcase that, advance the common good and knowledge, and not
promote its cause through what, in my eyes, would amount to plagiarism,
viz. letting things pass for Elixir, when they are Erlang/OTP, nor
through ridiculing anyone or anything, least of all the very things or
persons that made it even possible. It not only looks childish to me, I
believe it is also damaging to the many excellent minds in the very
Elixir community.

Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please
demand it.
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Re: Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.

Joe Armstrong-2
In reply to this post by Fred Hebert-2
On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 1:54 PM Fred Hebert <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 03/24, Joe Armstrong wrote:
> >I for one welcome all the things the Elixir folks are doing - but I
> >have noticed the following:
> >
> >- Elixir folks are re-using Erlang libraries
> >- Erlang folks are not (it seems to me) reusing Elixir libraries
> >
> >The "how to call Erlang from Elixir" documentation is great - the
> >opposite "how to call Elixir from Elixir" is not (or have I missed something)
> >
> >Things like nerves, scenic, Phoenix etc. look great to me - but seem to be used
> >almost exclusively by Elixir folks.
> >
> >Has anybody made, for example, a pure Erlang interface to scenic?
> >
>
> Well, there are some limitations there.
>
> - You can use mix to build your Erlang project and then use Elixir in
>   there
> - You can use rebar3 with the rebar_mix plugin (along with an Elixir
>   install) to build Elixir dependencies (see
>   https://github.com/tsloughter/rebar_mix)
>
> But in all cases, you will not necessarily be able to use Elixir code
> when it heavily relies on macros at the call-site rather than
> internally. So for example, a lot of usage of _plugs_ in Phoenix rely on
> macros running within the controller compilation step to read the
> declaration and inline them "somewhere??" with no obvious way to do it
> without the macros.
>
> That specific stuff that relies on macros in _your Elixir code_ cannot
> be ported to work with _your Erlang code_, because, well, we don't have
> the same macro mechanisms available. Similarly, Erlang parse transforms
> may not remain fully applicable to Elixir modules in the future.
>
> This means that Ecto, which is a huge part of a lot of web framework
> usage, also won't be usable for Erlang users, since it is very
> macro-dependent.

Interesting - I'd imagined that after compilation you'd just end up
with beam code files after which you could call them from Erlang ...

Could this be rectified by a "better" macro processor for erlang - more
in the style of the Elixir macro processor ???

>
> But if you look at other libraries (or frameworks) such as Raxx
> (https://github.com/CrowdHailer/raxx), then this is a framework that is
> fully written in Elixir, yet usable from Erlang (there's a demo at
> https://github.com/CrowdHailer/greetings-ace-raxx-erlang-example).
> Similarly, a library such as https://github.com/ericmj/decimal for
> arbitrary precision arithmetic should be fine to use.
>
> This stuff has been available to rebar3 users since around late 2018, so
> I assume it has seen slow adoption due to its being rather new, but we
> (rebar3 maintainers) are confident that this bigger interplay is worth
> it and should be seeing adoption over time.
>
> Finally, the stuff we're setting up with the Erlang Ecosystem Foundation
> is also aimed at making language interplay easier for all languages of
> the ecosystem.

This would be great

/Joe
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Re: Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.

Bryan Paxton

On 3/24/19 11:26 AM, Joe Armstrong wrote:

> On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 1:54 PM Fred Hebert <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 03/24, Joe Armstrong wrote:
>>> I for one welcome all the things the Elixir folks are doing - but I
>>> have noticed the following:
>>>
>>> - Elixir folks are re-using Erlang libraries
>>> - Erlang folks are not (it seems to me) reusing Elixir libraries
>>>
>>> The "how to call Erlang from Elixir" documentation is great - the
>>> opposite "how to call Elixir from Elixir" is not (or have I missed something)
>>>
>>> Things like nerves, scenic, Phoenix etc. look great to me - but seem to be used
>>> almost exclusively by Elixir folks.
>>>
>>> Has anybody made, for example, a pure Erlang interface to scenic?
>>>
>> Well, there are some limitations there.
>>
>> - You can use mix to build your Erlang project and then use Elixir in
>>   there
>> - You can use rebar3 with the rebar_mix plugin (along with an Elixir
>>   install) to build Elixir dependencies (see
>>   https://github.com/tsloughter/rebar_mix)
>>
>> But in all cases, you will not necessarily be able to use Elixir code
>> when it heavily relies on macros at the call-site rather than
>> internally. So for example, a lot of usage of _plugs_ in Phoenix rely on
>> macros running within the controller compilation step to read the
>> declaration and inline them "somewhere??" with no obvious way to do it
>> without the macros.
>>
>> That specific stuff that relies on macros in _your Elixir code_ cannot
>> be ported to work with _your Erlang code_, because, well, we don't have
>> the same macro mechanisms available. Similarly, Erlang parse transforms
>> may not remain fully applicable to Elixir modules in the future.
>>
>> This means that Ecto, which is a huge part of a lot of web framework
>> usage, also won't be usable for Erlang users, since it is very
>> macro-dependent.
> Interesting - I'd imagined that after compilation you'd just end up
> with beam code files after which you could call them from Erlang ...
>
> Could this be rectified by a "better" macro processor for erlang - more
> in the style of the Elixir macro processor ???


 I'd like to add on top of this the smallest part of the problem, but
what I see as a problem none the less...

'ManyWouldPrefer':'not_to_have_to_do_this?'(Please)


As stated, smallest of all the problems, but whether we like it or not
UX matters. This not only applies to using Elixir but LFE, etc.  The
only solutions to that problem that I could think of involve perhaps too
much trickery, not really sure how the community feels about said
trickery though. That is to say, to squash this problem effectively
you'd have to translate/generate modules in other BEAM languages to pure
erlang (or generate pure erlang interfaces), prefix the module names
with 'elixir_' or 'lfe_' and then hack the compiler, shell, etc. to
treat this as special so that in the end we would be using
many_would_prefer:not_to_have_to_do_this(Please). Or instead of said
trickery, elixir_many_would_prefer:not_to_have_to_do_this(Please).

 This brings me to another point and something I didn't understand until
recently. Yes, with the rebar_mix plugin and so forth you end up using
the artifact (beam file) compiled by the given beam language. As Tristan
said, this requires you to have Elixir installed... it's not that big of
a deal perhaps... but say you would simply like to bring in emj's
Decimal lib as pointed out by Tristan... Do you really want to bring in
all of Elixir just to use said lib? It seems a bit much. This is
precisely why I "ported" Elixir's Version module to pure Erlang. Now,
you don't need to bring in Elixir to use a fully compatible semver
lib... but it's wrong... I felt bad in doing it... there is now more
code in the world and that's the last thing we need.

 What I want (dreams and wishes):

  Universal BEAM/Erlang libs. It would be the bees knees and a HUGE win
for the entire community for all to seamlessly be able use erlang,
elixir, lfe, <insert all the other BEAM langs here> without having to
bring in the entire language. If I'm not using the language directly,
why do I need that? How this could be achieved, have no idea, erlang
core perhaps... perhaps it's more complicated than that... 


--

Bryan


>
>> But if you look at other libraries (or frameworks) such as Raxx
>> (https://github.com/CrowdHailer/raxx), then this is a framework that is
>> fully written in Elixir, yet usable from Erlang (there's a demo at
>> https://github.com/CrowdHailer/greetings-ace-raxx-erlang-example).
>> Similarly, a library such as https://github.com/ericmj/decimal for
>> arbitrary precision arithmetic should be fine to use.
>>
>> This stuff has been available to rebar3 users since around late 2018, so
>> I assume it has seen slow adoption due to its being rather new, but we
>> (rebar3 maintainers) are confident that this bigger interplay is worth
>> it and should be seeing adoption over time.
>>
>> Finally, the stuff we're setting up with the Erlang Ecosystem Foundation
>> is also aimed at making language interplay easier for all languages of
>> the ecosystem.
> This would be great
>
> /Joe

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Re: Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.

Devon Estes
What if it was allowed for package maintainers to publish pre-compiled BEAM files to Hex? I would imagine that everyone who is pushing packages to Hex also has the ability to compile those packages on the machine they’re using to publish.

There are clearly a whole ton of reasons why that could be a bad idea (and probably wouldn’t even work for a large chunk of macro-heavy Elixir libraries that rely on Mix configuration to be present at compile time), but it would also make for the easiest story for cross-language library sharing.

It pushes the compilation step from the user of a package to the maintainer of that package, but if CLI tools knew where to put these pre-compiled BEAM files so users didn’t have to think about it, then it could make usage of some libraries much easier.

It could be an optional thing for those maintainers who want to go the extra mile to make cross-language use of their packages easier. I know I’d be happy to take that extra step when publishing new versions of Benchee if it meant Erlang/LFE/etc. users could have an easier time using it.

Or it could just make everything worse and more complicated 😇 but it seemed like it was worth bringing up.

Bryan Paxton <[hidden email]> schrieb am So. 24. März 2019 um 17:50:

On 3/24/19 11:26 AM, Joe Armstrong wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 1:54 PM Fred Hebert <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 03/24, Joe Armstrong wrote:
>>> I for one welcome all the things the Elixir folks are doing - but I
>>> have noticed the following:
>>>
>>> - Elixir folks are re-using Erlang libraries
>>> - Erlang folks are not (it seems to me) reusing Elixir libraries
>>>
>>> The "how to call Erlang from Elixir" documentation is great - the
>>> opposite "how to call Elixir from Elixir" is not (or have I missed something)
>>>
>>> Things like nerves, scenic, Phoenix etc. look great to me - but seem to be used
>>> almost exclusively by Elixir folks.
>>>
>>> Has anybody made, for example, a pure Erlang interface to scenic?
>>>
>> Well, there are some limitations there.
>>
>> - You can use mix to build your Erlang project and then use Elixir in
>>   there
>> - You can use rebar3 with the rebar_mix plugin (along with an Elixir
>>   install) to build Elixir dependencies (see
>>   https://github.com/tsloughter/rebar_mix)
>>
>> But in all cases, you will not necessarily be able to use Elixir code
>> when it heavily relies on macros at the call-site rather than
>> internally. So for example, a lot of usage of _plugs_ in Phoenix rely on
>> macros running within the controller compilation step to read the
>> declaration and inline them "somewhere??" with no obvious way to do it
>> without the macros.
>>
>> That specific stuff that relies on macros in _your Elixir code_ cannot
>> be ported to work with _your Erlang code_, because, well, we don't have
>> the same macro mechanisms available. Similarly, Erlang parse transforms
>> may not remain fully applicable to Elixir modules in the future.
>>
>> This means that Ecto, which is a huge part of a lot of web framework
>> usage, also won't be usable for Erlang users, since it is very
>> macro-dependent.
> Interesting - I'd imagined that after compilation you'd just end up
> with beam code files after which you could call them from Erlang ...
>
> Could this be rectified by a "better" macro processor for erlang - more
> in the style of the Elixir macro processor ???


 I'd like to add on top of this the smallest part of the problem, but
what I see as a problem none the less...

'ManyWouldPrefer':'not_to_have_to_do_this?'(Please)


As stated, smallest of all the problems, but whether we like it or not
UX matters. This not only applies to using Elixir but LFE, etc.  The
only solutions to that problem that I could think of involve perhaps too
much trickery, not really sure how the community feels about said
trickery though. That is to say, to squash this problem effectively
you'd have to translate/generate modules in other BEAM languages to pure
erlang (or generate pure erlang interfaces), prefix the module names
with 'elixir_' or 'lfe_' and then hack the compiler, shell, etc. to
treat this as special so that in the end we would be using
many_would_prefer:not_to_have_to_do_this(Please). Or instead of said
trickery, elixir_many_would_prefer:not_to_have_to_do_this(Please).

 This brings me to another point and something I didn't understand until
recently. Yes, with the rebar_mix plugin and so forth you end up using
the artifact (beam file) compiled by the given beam language. As Tristan
said, this requires you to have Elixir installed... it's not that big of
a deal perhaps... but say you would simply like to bring in emj's
Decimal lib as pointed out by Tristan... Do you really want to bring in
all of Elixir just to use said lib? It seems a bit much. This is
precisely why I "ported" Elixir's Version module to pure Erlang. Now,
you don't need to bring in Elixir to use a fully compatible semver
lib... but it's wrong... I felt bad in doing it... there is now more
code in the world and that's the last thing we need.

 What I want (dreams and wishes):

  Universal BEAM/Erlang libs. It would be the bees knees and a HUGE win
for the entire community for all to seamlessly be able use erlang,
elixir, lfe, <insert all the other BEAM langs here> without having to
bring in the entire language. If I'm not using the language directly,
why do I need that? How this could be achieved, have no idea, erlang
core perhaps... perhaps it's more complicated than that... 


--

Bryan


>
>> But if you look at other libraries (or frameworks) such as Raxx
>> (https://github.com/CrowdHailer/raxx), then this is a framework that is
>> fully written in Elixir, yet usable from Erlang (there's a demo at
>> https://github.com/CrowdHailer/greetings-ace-raxx-erlang-example).
>> Similarly, a library such as https://github.com/ericmj/decimal for
>> arbitrary precision arithmetic should be fine to use.
>>
>> This stuff has been available to rebar3 users since around late 2018, so
>> I assume it has seen slow adoption due to its being rather new, but we
>> (rebar3 maintainers) are confident that this bigger interplay is worth
>> it and should be seeing adoption over time.
>>
>> Finally, the stuff we're setting up with the Erlang Ecosystem Foundation
>> is also aimed at making language interplay easier for all languages of
>> the ecosystem.
> This would be great
>
> /Joe

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203.559.0323
www.devonestes.com


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Re: Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.

José Valim-2
> What if it was allowed for package maintainers to publish pre-compiled BEAM files to Hex? I would imagine that everyone who is pushing packages to Hex also has the ability to compile those packages on the machine they’re using to publish.

Unfortunately that wouldn't solve the issue with macros, because macros are still compiled to regular BEAMs. A precompiled BEAM wouldn't change the module name nor the name of a function. The incompatibility is in the calling convention and in the different ASTs (similar issue to LFE). 

I feel there are some things that could be done from the Elixir side to make things easier (it could maybe ship with a parse_transform?) but I feel that, for full convenience, (small) changes would need to be done to Erlang too, such as allowing ? and ! at the end of atoms without quoting (note: I am not proposing it, just commenting on it).

Unfortunately, on the topic of macros, I can't see them working from Erlang at all. But I don't consider it a bad thing. Well-designed libraries should use macros just a thin layer on top of a proper functional APIs. For example, the macro layer in Plug is very thin and it should be relatively straight-forward to write your own plug web apps in Erlang. But I also feel that even if we somehow port the Plug macro conveniences to Erlang, people won't enjoy using it if you have to write things such as 'Elixir.Plug':send_resp(...).

Maybe if we overcome the initial awkwardness which is the different namespace rules, there will be a growing interest in solving those problems.

José Valim
Skype: jv.ptec
Founder and Director of R&D
 

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