|
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12
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|
Yesterday I attended the Code Beam Lite conference in Bologna, Italy. It
ended with a keynote by an Elixir Core Team member, entitled "Elixir
Architecture 101".
At the end of an otherwise interesting talk, which started with the
presenter saying he hated Erlang (some in the audience found it funny)
and in which he occasionally made fun of Joe and of the perceived
shortcomings of Erlang, I couldn’t help wonder where Elixir was in all
that talk, since the “Elixir” architecture presented, was practically
OTP.
I find this very much in bad taste and not helpful towards a beneficial
sharing and spreading of knowledge. I don’t know if the Code of Conduct
of the Code Beam conferences contemplates this, but I would favour
forbidding it.
If Elixir has something good to offer, and I think it has, let its
community showcase that, advance the common good and knowledge, and not
promote its cause through what, in my eyes, would amount to plagiarism,
viz. letting things pass for Elixir, when they are Erlang/OTP, nor
through ridiculing anyone or anything, least of all the very things or
persons that made it even possible. It not only looks childish to me, I
believe it is also damaging to the many excellent minds in the very
Elixir community.
Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please
demand it.
_______________________________________________
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
|
|
|
Who was the speaker?
On 3/23/19 11:13 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
> Yesterday I attended the Code Beam Lite conference in Bologna, Italy. It
> ended with a keynote by an Elixir Core Team member, entitled "Elixir
> Architecture 101".
>
> At the end of an otherwise interesting talk, which started with the
> presenter saying he hated Erlang (some in the audience found it funny)
> and in which he occasionally made fun of Joe and of the perceived
> shortcomings of Erlang, I couldn’t help wonder where Elixir was in all
> that talk, since the “Elixir” architecture presented, was practically
> OTP.
>
> I find this very much in bad taste and not helpful towards a beneficial
> sharing and spreading of knowledge. I don’t know if the Code of Conduct
> of the Code Beam conferences contemplates this, but I would favour
> forbidding it.
>
> If Elixir has something good to offer, and I think it has, let its
> community showcase that, advance the common good and knowledge, and not
> promote its cause through what, in my eyes, would amount to plagiarism,
> viz. letting things pass for Elixir, when they are Erlang/OTP, nor
> through ridiculing anyone or anything, least of all the very things or
> persons that made it even possible. It not only looks childish to me, I
> believe it is also damaging to the many excellent minds in the very
> Elixir community.
>
> Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please
> demand it.
> _______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions_______________________________________________
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
|
|
|
I'd prefer no calling out of the name, what good will that do?
Gesendet: Samstag, 23. März 2019 um 17:36 Uhr
Von: "Bryan Paxton" < [hidden email]>
An: [hidden email], [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [erlang-questions] Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.
Who was the speaker?
On 3/23/19 11:13 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
> Yesterday I attended the Code Beam Lite conference in Bologna, Italy. It
> ended with a keynote by an Elixir Core Team member, entitled "Elixir
> Architecture 101".
>
> At the end of an otherwise interesting talk, which started with the
> presenter saying he hated Erlang (some in the audience found it funny)
> and in which he occasionally made fun of Joe and of the perceived
> shortcomings of Erlang, I couldn’t help wonder where Elixir was in all
> that talk, since the “Elixir” architecture presented, was practically
> OTP.
>
> I find this very much in bad taste and not helpful towards a beneficial
> sharing and spreading of knowledge. I don’t know if the Code of Conduct
> of the Code Beam conferences contemplates this, but I would favour
> forbidding it.
>
> If Elixir has something good to offer, and I think it has, let its
> community showcase that, advance the common good and knowledge, and not
> promote its cause through what, in my eyes, would amount to plagiarism,
> viz. letting things pass for Elixir, when they are Erlang/OTP, nor
> through ridiculing anyone or anything, least of all the very things or
> persons that made it even possible. It not only looks childish to me, I
> believe it is also damaging to the many excellent minds in the very
> Elixir community.
>
> Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please
> demand it.
> _______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
_______________________________________________
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
_______________________________________________
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
|
|
|
I hear ya... I was being lazy :) I see who it is and I have to
wonder if some of what he said was in gest? Maybe just didn't come
across right? I hope so :(
--
Bryan
On 3/23/19 11:44 AM, Oliver Korpilla
wrote:
I'd prefer no calling out of the name, what good will that
do?
Gesendet: Samstag,
23. März 2019 um 17:36 Uhr
Von: "Bryan Paxton" [hidden email]
An: [hidden email], [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [erlang-questions] Elixir community,
please be more responsible; Erlang community, please
demand it.
Who was the speaker?
On 3/23/19 11:13 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
> Yesterday I attended the Code Beam Lite conference in
Bologna, Italy. It
> ended with a keynote by an Elixir Core Team member,
entitled "Elixir
> Architecture 101".
>
> At the end of an otherwise interesting talk, which
started with the
> presenter saying he hated Erlang (some in the
audience found it funny)
> and in which he occasionally made fun of Joe and of
the perceived
> shortcomings of Erlang, I couldn’t help wonder where
Elixir was in all
> that talk, since the “Elixir” architecture presented,
was practically
> OTP.
>
> I find this very much in bad taste and not helpful
towards a beneficial
> sharing and spreading of knowledge. I don’t know if
the Code of Conduct
> of the Code Beam conferences contemplates this, but I
would favour
> forbidding it.
>
> If Elixir has something good to offer, and I think it
has, let its
> community showcase that, advance the common good and
knowledge, and not
> promote its cause through what, in my eyes, would
amount to plagiarism,
> viz. letting things pass for Elixir, when they are
Erlang/OTP, nor
> through ridiculing anyone or anything, least of all
the very things or
> persons that made it even possible. It not only looks
childish to me, I
> believe it is also damaging to the many excellent
minds in the very
> Elixir community.
>
> Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang
community, please
> demand it.
> _______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
_______________________________________________
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
_______________________________________________
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
|
|
|
I hear you. One can only hope. Those things always happen, though, almost invariably. I guess it has mostly to do with the desire to carve one's own niche.
I hear ya... I was being lazy :) I see who it is and I have to wonder if some of what he said was in gest? Maybe just didn't come across right? I hope so :(
--
Bryan
On 3/23/19 11:44 AM, Oliver Korpilla wrote:
I'd prefer no calling out of the name, what good will that do?
Gesendet: Samstag, 23. März 2019 um 17:36 Uhr
Von: "Bryan Paxton" [hidden email]
An: [hidden email], [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [erlang-questions] Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.
Who was the speaker?
On 3/23/19 11:13 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
> Yesterday I attended the Code Beam Lite conference in Bologna, Italy. It
> ended with a keynote by an Elixir Core Team member, entitled "Elixir
> Architecture 101".
>
> At the end of an otherwise interesting talk, which started with the
> presenter saying he hated Erlang (some in the audience found it funny)
> and in which he occasionally made fun of Joe and of the perceived
> shortcomings of Erlang, I couldn’t help wonder where Elixir was in all
> that talk, since the “Elixir” architecture presented, was practically
> OTP.
>
> I find this very much in bad taste and not helpful towards a beneficial
> sharing and spreading of knowledge. I don’t know if the Code of Conduct
> of the Code Beam conferences contemplates this, but I would favour
> forbidding it.
>
> If Elixir has something good to offer, and I think it has, let its
> community showcase that, advance the common good and knowledge, and not
> promote its cause through what, in my eyes, would amount to plagiarism,
> viz. letting things pass for Elixir, when they are Erlang/OTP, nor
> through ridiculing anyone or anything, least of all the very things or
> persons that made it even possible. It not only looks childish to me, I
> believe it is also damaging to the many excellent minds in the very
> Elixir community.
>
> Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please
> demand it.
> _______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
_______________________________________________
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
_______________________________________________
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
|
|
|
FWIW the speaker in question has never come across to me as
being hostile towards Erlang, etc. They have always been very laid
back, open to ideas, erlang, etc. In fact, I was talking to them
about Erlang earlier this week and they encouraged me to talk
about Erlang in an Elixir dominated environment :) So, I have to
assume that things came across the wrong way due to language
barriers, etc. Jokes in particular get lost in translation easily
and can be seen as something hostile or malicious... The folly of
language.
Then there's always the possibility the talk was a behavioral
experiment :)
But I'm glad we got a line of communication open as that's the
only way that squashes these issues. The BEAM communities need
group therapy sometimes IMO :)
There's been a lot of hostility from the Erlang community
towards Elixir in the past... and I wonder if the echoes of all
that are so ingrained in some of us that we have knee jerk
reactions sometimes (i.e., we hear something from an Elixir
speaker and absolutely take it the wrong way). Having come from
Elixir to Erlang I very much have seen both sides of that coin. I
know this much....
The main thing... Elixir is Erlang, LFE is Elang, Efene is
Erlang, Gleam is Erlang, etc.... While from one side it appears
Elixir is another language... I don't think many, especially in
the Elixir community feel that way... especially core members,
syntactical differences aside Elixir is erlang. BEAM on!
--
Bryan
On 3/23/19 11:57 AM, Oliver Korpilla
wrote:
I hear you. One can only hope. Those things always happen,
though, almost invariably. I guess it has mostly to do with
the desire to carve one's own niche.
I hear ya... I was being lazy :) I see who it is
and I have to wonder if some of what he said was in
gest? Maybe just didn't come across right? I hope so
:(
--
Bryan
On 3/23/19 11:44 AM,
Oliver Korpilla wrote:
I'd prefer no calling out of the name, what
good will that do?
Gesendet: Samstag,
23. März 2019 um 17:36 Uhr
Von: "Bryan Paxton" [hidden email]
An: [hidden email],
[hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [erlang-questions]
Elixir community, please be more
responsible; Erlang community, please demand
it.
Who was the speaker?
On 3/23/19 11:13 AM, [hidden email]
wrote:
> Yesterday I attended the Code Beam Lite
conference in Bologna, Italy. It
> ended with a keynote by an Elixir Core
Team member, entitled "Elixir
> Architecture 101".
>
> At the end of an otherwise interesting
talk, which started with the
> presenter saying he hated Erlang (some
in the audience found it funny)
> and in which he occasionally made fun
of Joe and of the perceived
> shortcomings of Erlang, I couldn’t help
wonder where Elixir was in all
> that talk, since the “Elixir”
architecture presented, was practically
> OTP.
>
> I find this very much in bad taste and
not helpful towards a beneficial
> sharing and spreading of knowledge. I
don’t know if the Code of Conduct
> of the Code Beam conferences
contemplates this, but I would favour
> forbidding it.
>
> If Elixir has something good to offer,
and I think it has, let its
> community showcase that, advance the
common good and knowledge, and not
> promote its cause through what, in my
eyes, would amount to plagiarism,
> viz. letting things pass for Elixir,
when they are Erlang/OTP, nor
> through ridiculing anyone or anything,
least of all the very things or
> persons that made it even possible. It
not only looks childish to me, I
> believe it is also damaging to the many
excellent minds in the very
> Elixir community.
>
> Elixir community, please be more
responsible; Erlang community, please
> demand it.
>
_______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
_______________________________________________
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
_______________________________________________
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
|
|
|
ok. i’ll take your word for it. it’s quite possible i got it wrong and i’m sorry to have triggered this then. thanks for sharing your thoughts Arif
FWIW the speaker in question has never come across to me as
being hostile towards Erlang, etc. They have always been very laid
back, open to ideas, erlang, etc. In fact, I was talking to them
about Erlang earlier this week and they encouraged me to talk
about Erlang in an Elixir dominated environment :) So, I have to
assume that things came across the wrong way due to language
barriers, etc. Jokes in particular get lost in translation easily
and can be seen as something hostile or malicious... The folly of
language.
Then there's always the possibility the talk was a behavioral
experiment :)
But I'm glad we got a line of communication open as that's the
only way that squashes these issues. The BEAM communities need
group therapy sometimes IMO :)
There's been a lot of hostility from the Erlang community
towards Elixir in the past... and I wonder if the echoes of all
that are so ingrained in some of us that we have knee jerk
reactions sometimes (i.e., we hear something from an Elixir
speaker and absolutely take it the wrong way). Having come from
Elixir to Erlang I very much have seen both sides of that coin. I
know this much....
The main thing... Elixir is Erlang, LFE is Elang, Efene is
Erlang, Gleam is Erlang, etc.... While from one side it appears
Elixir is another language... I don't think many, especially in
the Elixir community feel that way... especially core members,
syntactical differences aside Elixir is erlang. BEAM on!
--
Bryan
On 3/23/19 11:57 AM, Oliver Korpilla
wrote:
I hear you. One can only hope. Those things always happen,
though, almost invariably. I guess it has mostly to do with
the desire to carve one's own niche.
I hear ya... I was being lazy :) I see who it is
and I have to wonder if some of what he said was in
gest? Maybe just didn't come across right? I hope so
:(
--
Bryan
On 3/23/19 11:44 AM,
Oliver Korpilla wrote:
I'd prefer no calling out of the name, what
good will that do?
Gesendet: Samstag,
23. März 2019 um 17:36 Uhr
Von: "Bryan Paxton" [hidden email]
An: [hidden email],
[hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [erlang-questions]
Elixir community, please be more
responsible; Erlang community, please demand
it.
Who was the speaker?
On 3/23/19 11:13 AM, [hidden email]
wrote:
> Yesterday I attended the Code Beam Lite
conference in Bologna, Italy. It
> ended with a keynote by an Elixir Core
Team member, entitled "Elixir
> Architecture 101".
>
> At the end of an otherwise interesting
talk, which started with the
> presenter saying he hated Erlang (some
in the audience found it funny)
> and in which he occasionally made fun
of Joe and of the perceived
> shortcomings of Erlang, I couldn’t help
wonder where Elixir was in all
> that talk, since the “Elixir”
architecture presented, was practically
> OTP.
>
> I find this very much in bad taste and
not helpful towards a beneficial
> sharing and spreading of knowledge. I
don’t know if the Code of Conduct
> of the Code Beam conferences
contemplates this, but I would favour
> forbidding it.
>
> If Elixir has something good to offer,
and I think it has, let its
> community showcase that, advance the
common good and knowledge, and not
> promote its cause through what, in my
eyes, would amount to plagiarism,
> viz. letting things pass for Elixir,
when they are Erlang/OTP, nor
> through ridiculing anyone or anything,
least of all the very things or
> persons that made it even possible. It
not only looks childish to me, I
> believe it is also damaging to the many
excellent minds in the very
> Elixir community.
>
> Elixir community, please be more
responsible; Erlang community, please
> demand it.
>
_______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
_______________________________________________
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
_______________________________________________
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
|
|
|
No, no... no triggering happened :) It's better to talk than to
internalize... so I'm glad you brought this up. Communication is
the only way to resolve misunderstanding :) :heart:
--
Bryan
On 3/23/19 1:15 PM, arif wrote:
ok. i’ll take your word for it. it’s quite possible
i got it wrong and i’m sorry to have triggered this then.
thanks for sharing your thoughts
Arif
FWIW the speaker in question has never come across to me
as being hostile towards Erlang, etc. They have always been
very laid back, open to ideas, erlang, etc. In fact, I was
talking to them about Erlang earlier this week and they
encouraged me to talk about Erlang in an Elixir dominated
environment :) So, I have to assume that things came across
the wrong way due to language barriers, etc. Jokes in
particular get lost in translation easily and can be seen as
something hostile or malicious... The folly of language.
Then there's always the possibility the talk was a
behavioral experiment :)
But I'm glad we got a line of communication open as
that's the only way that squashes these issues. The BEAM
communities need group therapy sometimes IMO :)
There's been a lot of hostility from the Erlang community
towards Elixir in the past... and I wonder if the echoes of
all that are so ingrained in some of us that we have knee
jerk reactions sometimes (i.e., we hear something from an
Elixir speaker and absolutely take it the wrong way). Having
come from Elixir to Erlang I very much have seen both sides
of that coin. I know this much....
The main thing... Elixir is Erlang, LFE is Elang, Efene is
Erlang, Gleam is Erlang, etc.... While from one side it
appears Elixir is another language... I don't think many,
especially in the Elixir community feel that way...
especially core members, syntactical differences aside
Elixir is erlang. BEAM on!
--
Bryan
On 3/23/19 11:57 AM, Oliver
Korpilla wrote:
I hear you. One can only hope. Those things always
happen, though, almost invariably. I guess it has mostly
to do with the desire to carve one's own niche.
I hear ya... I was being lazy :) I see who
it is and I have to wonder if some of what he
said was in gest? Maybe just didn't come
across right? I hope so :(
--
Bryan
On 3/23/19 11:44
AM, Oliver Korpilla wrote:
I'd prefer no calling out of the name,
what good will that do?
Gesendet: Samstag,
23. März 2019 um 17:36 Uhr
Von: "Bryan Paxton" [hidden email]
An: [hidden email],
[hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [erlang-questions]
Elixir community, please be more
responsible; Erlang community, please
demand it.
Who was the speaker?
On 3/23/19 11:13 AM, [hidden email]
wrote:
> Yesterday I attended the Code
Beam Lite conference in Bologna,
Italy. It
> ended with a keynote by an Elixir
Core Team member, entitled "Elixir
> Architecture 101".
>
> At the end of an otherwise
interesting talk, which started with
the
> presenter saying he hated Erlang
(some in the audience found it funny)
> and in which he occasionally made
fun of Joe and of the perceived
> shortcomings of Erlang, I
couldn’t help wonder where Elixir was
in all
> that talk, since the “Elixir”
architecture presented, was
practically
> OTP.
>
> I find this very much in bad
taste and not helpful towards a
beneficial
> sharing and spreading of
knowledge. I don’t know if the Code of
Conduct
> of the Code Beam conferences
contemplates this, but I would favour
> forbidding it.
>
> If Elixir has something good to
offer, and I think it has, let its
> community showcase that, advance
the common good and knowledge, and not
> promote its cause through what,
in my eyes, would amount to
plagiarism,
> viz. letting things pass for
Elixir, when they are Erlang/OTP, nor
> through ridiculing anyone or
anything, least of all the very things
or
> persons that made it even
possible. It not only looks childish
to me, I
> believe it is also damaging to
the many excellent minds in the very
> Elixir community.
>
> Elixir community, please be more
responsible; Erlang community, please
> demand it.
>
_______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
_______________________________________________
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
_______________________________________________
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
|
|
|
WTF! They are messing up with Joe?! No
triggering...internalize what? What's his name and address?!!
I'm flying in. Need a bottle of scotch and a map in that same
order. LOL!
On 3/23/19 2:22 PM, Bryan Paxton wrote:
No, no... no triggering happened :) It's better to talk than
to internalize... so I'm glad you brought this up. Communication
is the only way to resolve misunderstanding :) :heart:
--
Bryan
On 3/23/19 1:15 PM, arif wrote:
ok. i’ll take your word for it. it’s quite
possible i got it wrong and i’m sorry to have triggered this
then.
thanks for sharing your thoughts
Arif
FWIW the speaker in question has never come across to me
as being hostile towards Erlang, etc. They have always
been very laid back, open to ideas, erlang, etc. In fact,
I was talking to them about Erlang earlier this week and
they encouraged me to talk about Erlang in an Elixir
dominated environment :) So, I have to assume that things
came across the wrong way due to language barriers, etc.
Jokes in particular get lost in translation easily and can
be seen as something hostile or malicious... The folly of
language.
Then there's always the possibility the talk was a
behavioral experiment :)
But I'm glad we got a line of communication open as
that's the only way that squashes these issues. The BEAM
communities need group therapy sometimes IMO :)
There's been a lot of hostility from the Erlang
community towards Elixir in the past... and I wonder if
the echoes of all that are so ingrained in some of us that
we have knee jerk reactions sometimes (i.e., we hear
something from an Elixir speaker and absolutely take it
the wrong way). Having come from Elixir to Erlang I very
much have seen both sides of that coin. I know this
much....
The main thing... Elixir is Erlang, LFE is Elang, Efene
is Erlang, Gleam is Erlang, etc.... While from one side it
appears Elixir is another language... I don't think many,
especially in the Elixir community feel that way...
especially core members, syntactical differences aside
Elixir is erlang. BEAM on!
--
Bryan
On 3/23/19 11:57 AM, Oliver
Korpilla wrote:
I hear you. One can only hope. Those things always
happen, though, almost invariably. I guess it has
mostly to do with the desire to carve one's own niche.
I hear ya... I was being lazy :) I see who
it is and I have to wonder if some of what
he said was in gest? Maybe just didn't come
across right? I hope so :(
--
Bryan
On 3/23/19 11:44
AM, Oliver Korpilla wrote:
I'd prefer no calling out of the
name, what good will that do?
Gesendet: Samstag,
23. März 2019 um 17:36 Uhr
Von: "Bryan Paxton" [hidden email]
An: [hidden email],
[hidden email]
Betreff: Re:
[erlang-questions] Elixir community,
please be more responsible; Erlang
community, please demand it.
Who was the speaker?
On 3/23/19 11:13 AM, [hidden email]
wrote:
> Yesterday I attended the Code
Beam Lite conference in Bologna,
Italy. It
> ended with a keynote by an
Elixir Core Team member, entitled
"Elixir
> Architecture 101".
>
> At the end of an otherwise
interesting talk, which started with
the
> presenter saying he hated
Erlang (some in the audience found
it funny)
> and in which he occasionally
made fun of Joe and of the perceived
> shortcomings of Erlang, I
couldn’t help wonder where Elixir
was in all
> that talk, since the “Elixir”
architecture presented, was
practically
> OTP.
>
> I find this very much in bad
taste and not helpful towards a
beneficial
> sharing and spreading of
knowledge. I don’t know if the Code
of Conduct
> of the Code Beam conferences
contemplates this, but I would
favour
> forbidding it.
>
> If Elixir has something good to
offer, and I think it has, let its
> community showcase that,
advance the common good and
knowledge, and not
> promote its cause through what,
in my eyes, would amount to
plagiarism,
> viz. letting things pass for
Elixir, when they are Erlang/OTP,
nor
> through ridiculing anyone or
anything, least of all the very
things or
> persons that made it even
possible. It not only looks childish
to me, I
> believe it is also damaging to
the many excellent minds in the very
> Elixir community.
>
> Elixir community, please be
more responsible; Erlang community,
please
> demand it.
>
_______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
_______________________________________________
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
_______________________________________________
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
_______________________________________________
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
|
|
|
You need a lagom bottles of scotch :)
WTF! They are messing up with Joe?!
No triggering...internalize what? What's his name and
address?!! I'm flying in. Need a bottle of scotch and a map
in that same order. LOL!
On 3/23/19 2:22 PM, Bryan Paxton
wrote:
No, no... no triggering happened :) It's better to talk than
to internalize... so I'm glad you brought this up.
Communication is the only way to resolve misunderstanding :)
:heart:
--
Bryan
On 3/23/19 1:15 PM, arif wrote:
ok. i’ll take your word for it. it’s quite
possible i got it wrong and i’m sorry to have triggered
this then.
thanks for sharing your thoughts
Arif
FWIW the speaker in question has never come across to
me as being hostile towards Erlang, etc. They have
always been very laid back, open to ideas, erlang, etc.
In fact, I was talking to them about Erlang earlier this
week and they encouraged me to talk about Erlang in an
Elixir dominated environment :) So, I have to assume
that things came across the wrong way due to language
barriers, etc. Jokes in particular get lost in
translation easily and can be seen as something hostile
or malicious... The folly of language.
Then there's always the possibility the talk was a
behavioral experiment :)
But I'm glad we got a line of communication open as
that's the only way that squashes these issues. The BEAM
communities need group therapy sometimes IMO :)
There's been a lot of hostility from the Erlang
community towards Elixir in the past... and I wonder if
the echoes of all that are so ingrained in some of us
that we have knee jerk reactions sometimes (i.e., we
hear something from an Elixir speaker and absolutely
take it the wrong way). Having come from Elixir to
Erlang I very much have seen both sides of that coin. I
know this much....
The main thing... Elixir is Erlang, LFE is Elang,
Efene is Erlang, Gleam is Erlang, etc.... While from one
side it appears Elixir is another language... I don't
think many, especially in the Elixir community feel that
way... especially core members, syntactical differences
aside Elixir is erlang. BEAM on!
--
Bryan
On 3/23/19 11:57 AM, Oliver
Korpilla wrote:
I hear you. One can only hope. Those things
always happen, though, almost invariably. I guess it
has mostly to do with the desire to carve one's own
niche.
I hear ya... I was being lazy :) I see
who it is and I have to wonder if some of
what he said was in gest? Maybe just
didn't come across right? I hope so :(
--
Bryan
On 3/23/19
11:44 AM, Oliver Korpilla wrote:
I'd prefer no calling out of the
name, what good will that do?
Gesendet: Samstag,
23. März 2019 um 17:36 Uhr
Von: "Bryan Paxton" [hidden email]
An: [hidden email],
[hidden email]
Betreff: Re:
[erlang-questions] Elixir
community, please be more
responsible; Erlang community,
please demand it.
Who was the speaker?
On 3/23/19 11:13 AM, [hidden email]
wrote:
> Yesterday I attended the Code
Beam Lite conference in Bologna,
Italy. It
> ended with a keynote by an
Elixir Core Team member, entitled
"Elixir
> Architecture 101".
>
> At the end of an otherwise
interesting talk, which started
with the
> presenter saying he hated
Erlang (some in the audience found
it funny)
> and in which he occasionally
made fun of Joe and of the
perceived
> shortcomings of Erlang, I
couldn’t help wonder where Elixir
was in all
> that talk, since the “Elixir”
architecture presented, was
practically
> OTP.
>
> I find this very much in bad
taste and not helpful towards a
beneficial
> sharing and spreading of
knowledge. I don’t know if the
Code of Conduct
> of the Code Beam conferences
contemplates this, but I would
favour
> forbidding it.
>
> If Elixir has something good
to offer, and I think it has, let
its
> community showcase that,
advance the common good and
knowledge, and not
> promote its cause through
what, in my eyes, would amount to
plagiarism,
> viz. letting things pass for
Elixir, when they are Erlang/OTP,
nor
> through ridiculing anyone or
anything, least of all the very
things or
> persons that made it even
possible. It not only looks
childish to me, I
> believe it is also damaging
to the many excellent minds in the
very
> Elixir community.
>
> Elixir community, please be
more responsible; Erlang
community, please
> demand it.
>
_______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
_______________________________________________
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
_______________________________________________
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
_______________________________________________
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
_______________________________________________
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
|
|
|
Well I can't really comment on the talk since I wasn't there - so all
I can comment
on are the comments I've read here.
I for one welcome all the things the Elixir folks are doing - but I
have noticed the following:
- Elixir folks are re-using Erlang libraries
- Erlang folks are not (it seems to me) reusing Elixir libraries
The "how to call Erlang from Elixir" documentation is great - the
opposite "how to call Elixir from Elixir" is not (or have I missed something)
Things like nerves, scenic, Phoenix etc. look great to me - but seem to be used
almost exclusively by Elixir folks.
Has anybody made, for example, a pure Erlang interface to scenic?
As for things said in talks that upset people - I have done this myself
on several occasions - you say something that gets misinterpreted
and then everybody gets upset and they don't talk about the subject
of the talk but about the thing that annoyed them.
Andrea mailed me off-list with an apology - funny really when somebody
mails you apologising for something that you didn't even know had happened
but nice of him to do so ...
I'm just curious - has anybody made a pure Erlang interface to scenic?
And since this is the erlang list - how about joining the elixir forum
so you can get
an idea of what's going on over there - lot's of fun stuff I see
Cheers
/Joe
On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 8:27 PM Bryan Paxton < [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> You need a lagom bottles of scotch :)
>
> On 3/23/19 2:21 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>
> WTF! They are messing up with Joe?! No triggering...internalize what? What's his name and address?!! I'm flying in. Need a bottle of scotch and a map in that same order. LOL!
>
> On 3/23/19 2:22 PM, Bryan Paxton wrote:
>
> No, no... no triggering happened :) It's better to talk than to internalize... so I'm glad you brought this up. Communication is the only way to resolve misunderstanding :) :heart:
>
> --
>
> Bryan
>
>
> On 3/23/19 1:15 PM, arif wrote:
>
> ok. i’ll take your word for it. it’s quite possible i got it wrong and i’m sorry to have triggered this then.
> thanks for sharing your thoughts
> Arif
>
>
>
> On 23 Mar 2019, at 18:22, Bryan Paxton < [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> FWIW the speaker in question has never come across to me as being hostile towards Erlang, etc. They have always been very laid back, open to ideas, erlang, etc. In fact, I was talking to them about Erlang earlier this week and they encouraged me to talk about Erlang in an Elixir dominated environment :) So, I have to assume that things came across the wrong way due to language barriers, etc. Jokes in particular get lost in translation easily and can be seen as something hostile or malicious... The folly of language.
>
> Then there's always the possibility the talk was a behavioral experiment :)
>
> But I'm glad we got a line of communication open as that's the only way that squashes these issues. The BEAM communities need group therapy sometimes IMO :)
>
> There's been a lot of hostility from the Erlang community towards Elixir in the past... and I wonder if the echoes of all that are so ingrained in some of us that we have knee jerk reactions sometimes (i.e., we hear something from an Elixir speaker and absolutely take it the wrong way). Having come from Elixir to Erlang I very much have seen both sides of that coin. I know this much....
>
> The main thing... Elixir is Erlang, LFE is Elang, Efene is Erlang, Gleam is Erlang, etc.... While from one side it appears Elixir is another language... I don't think many, especially in the Elixir community feel that way... especially core members, syntactical differences aside Elixir is erlang. BEAM on!
>
>
> --
>
> Bryan
>
>
> On 3/23/19 11:57 AM, Oliver Korpilla wrote:
>
> I hear you. One can only hope. Those things always happen, though, almost invariably. I guess it has mostly to do with the desire to carve one's own niche.
>
> Gesendet: Samstag, 23. März 2019 um 17:46 Uhr
> Von: "Bryan Paxton" < [hidden email]>
> An: "Oliver Korpilla" < [hidden email]>
> Cc: [hidden email], [hidden email]
> Betreff: Re: Aw: Re: [erlang-questions] Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.
>
> I hear ya... I was being lazy :) I see who it is and I have to wonder if some of what he said was in gest? Maybe just didn't come across right? I hope so :(
>
>
>
> --
>
> Bryan
>
>
>
>
>
> On 3/23/19 11:44 AM, Oliver Korpilla wrote:
>
> I'd prefer no calling out of the name, what good will that do?
>
> Gesendet: Samstag, 23. März 2019 um 17:36 Uhr
> Von: "Bryan Paxton" < [hidden email]>
> An: [hidden email], [hidden email]
> Betreff: Re: [erlang-questions] Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.
> Who was the speaker?
>
> On 3/23/19 11:13 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
> > Yesterday I attended the Code Beam Lite conference in Bologna, Italy. It
> > ended with a keynote by an Elixir Core Team member, entitled "Elixir
> > Architecture 101".
> >
> > At the end of an otherwise interesting talk, which started with the
> > presenter saying he hated Erlang (some in the audience found it funny)
> > and in which he occasionally made fun of Joe and of the perceived
> > shortcomings of Erlang, I couldn’t help wonder where Elixir was in all
> > that talk, since the “Elixir” architecture presented, was practically
> > OTP.
> >
> > I find this very much in bad taste and not helpful towards a beneficial
> > sharing and spreading of knowledge. I don’t know if the Code of Conduct
> > of the Code Beam conferences contemplates this, but I would favour
> > forbidding it.
> >
> > If Elixir has something good to offer, and I think it has, let its
> > community showcase that, advance the common good and knowledge, and not
> > promote its cause through what, in my eyes, would amount to plagiarism,
> > viz. letting things pass for Elixir, when they are Erlang/OTP, nor
> > through ridiculing anyone or anything, least of all the very things or
> > persons that made it even possible. It not only looks childish to me, I
> > believe it is also damaging to the many excellent minds in the very
> > Elixir community.
> >
> > Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please
> > demand it.
> > _______________________________________________
> > erlang-questions mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions> _______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions>
>
> _______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions>
>
> _______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions>
> _______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions_______________________________________________
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
|
|
|
Hi, this discussion turns out to be very nice and uplifting. A very fine example how problems can be solved! Regarding nerves: this is on my list of things to try, on the way I might also peek a bit into elixir. Regards, Dieter Am 24. März 2019 11:40:34 MEZ schrieb Joe Armstrong < [hidden email]>:
Well I can't really comment on the talk since I wasn't there - so all
I can comment
on are the comments I've read here.
I for one welcome all the things the Elixir folks are doing - but I
have noticed the following:
- Elixir folks are re-using Erlang libraries
- Erlang folks are not (it seems to me) reusing Elixir libraries
The "how to call Erlang from Elixir" documentation is great - the
opposite "how to call Elixir from Elixir" is not (or have I missed something)
Things like nerves, scenic, Phoenix etc. look great to me - but seem to be used
almost exclusively by Elixir folks.
Has anybody made, for example, a pure Erlang interface to scenic?
As for things said in talks that upset people - I have done this myself
on several occasions - you say something that gets misinterpreted
and then everybody gets upset and they don't talk about the subject
of the talk but about the thing that annoyed them.
Andrea mailed me off-list with an apology - funny really when somebody
mails you apologising for something that you didn't even know had happened
but nice of him to do so ...
I'm just curious - has anybody made a pure Erlang interface to scenic?
And since this is the erlang list - how about joining the elixir forum
so you can get
an idea of what's going on over there - lot's of fun stuff I see
Cheers
/Joe
On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 8:27 PM Bryan Paxton <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
You need a lagom bottles of scotch :)
On 3/23/19 2:21 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
WTF! They are messing up with Joe?! No triggering...internalize what? What's his name and address?!! I'm flying in. Need a bottle of scotch and a map in that same order. LOL!
On 3/23/19 2:22 PM, Bryan Paxton wrote:
No, no... no triggering happened :) It's better to talk than to internalize... so I'm glad you brought this up. Communication is the only way to resolve misunderstanding :) :heart:
--
Bryan
On 3/23/19 1:15 PM, arif wrote:
ok. i’ll take your word for it. it’s quite possible i got it wrong and i’m sorry to have triggered this then.
thanks for sharing your thoughts
Arif
On 23 Mar 2019, at 18:22, Bryan Paxton <[hidden email]> wrote:
FWIW the speaker in question has never come across to me as being hostile towards Erlang, etc. They have always been very laid back, open to ideas, erlang, etc. In fact, I was talking to them about Erlang earlier this week and they encouraged me to talk about Erlang in an Elixir dominated environment :) So, I have to assume that things came across the wrong way due to language barriers, etc. Jokes in particular get lost in translation easily and can be seen as something hostile or malicious... The folly of language.
Then there's always the possibility the talk was a behavioral experiment :)
But I'm glad we got a line of communication open as that's the only way that squashes these issues. The BEAM communities need group therapy sometimes IMO :)
There's been a lot of hostility from the Erlang community towards Elixir in the past... and I wonder if the echoes of all that are so ingrained in some of us that we have knee jerk reactions sometimes (i.e., we hear something from an Elixir speaker and absolutely take it the wrong way). Having come from Elixir to Erlang I very much have seen both sides of that coin. I know this much....
The main thing... Elixir is Erlang, LFE is Elang, Efene is Erlang, Gleam is Erlang, etc.... While from one side it appears Elixir is another language... I don't think many, especially in the Elixir community feel that way... especially core members, syntactical differences aside Elixir is erlang. BEAM on!
--
Bryan
On 3/23/19 11:57 AM, Oliver Korpilla wrote:
I hear you. One can only hope. Those things always happen, though, almost invariably. I guess it has mostly to do with the desire to carve one's own niche.
Gesendet: Samstag, 23. März 2019 um 17:46 Uhr
Von: "Bryan Paxton" <[hidden email]>
An: "Oliver Korpilla" <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email], [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: Aw: Re: [erlang-questions] Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.
I hear ya... I was being lazy :) I see who it is and I have to wonder if some of what he said was in gest? Maybe just didn't come across right? I hope so :(
--
Bryan
On 3/23/19 11:44 AM, Oliver Korpilla wrote:
I'd prefer no calling out of the name, what good will that do?
Gesendet: Samstag, 23. März 2019 um 17:36 Uhr
Von: "Bryan Paxton" <[hidden email]>
An: [hidden email], [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [erlang-questions] Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.
Who was the speaker?
On 3/23/19 11:13 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
Yesterday I attended the Code Beam Lite conference in Bologna, Italy. It
ended with a keynote by an Elixir Core Team member, entitled "Elixir
Architecture 101".
At the end of an otherwise interesting talk, which started with the
presenter saying he hated Erlang (some in the audience found it funny)
and in which he occasionally made fun of Joe and of the perceived
shortcomings of Erlang, I couldn’t help wonder where Elixir was in all
that talk, since the “Elixir” architecture presented, was practically
OTP.
I find this very much in bad taste and not helpful towards a beneficial
sharing and spreading of knowledge. I don’t know if the Code of Conduct
of the Code Beam conferences contemplates this, but I would favour
forbidding it.
If Elixir has something good to offer, and I think it has, let its
community showcase that, advance the common good and knowledge, and not
promote its cause through what, in my eyes, would amount to plagiarism,
viz. letting things pass for Elixir, when they are Erlang/OTP, nor
through ridiculing anyone or anything, least of all the very things or
persons that made it even possible. It not only looks childish to me, I
believe it is also damaging to the many excellent minds in the very
Elixir community.
Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please
demand it.
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
_______________________________________________
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
|
|
|
On 03/24, Joe Armstrong wrote:
>I for one welcome all the things the Elixir folks are doing - but I
>have noticed the following:
>
>- Elixir folks are re-using Erlang libraries
>- Erlang folks are not (it seems to me) reusing Elixir libraries
>
>The "how to call Erlang from Elixir" documentation is great - the
>opposite "how to call Elixir from Elixir" is not (or have I missed something)
>
>Things like nerves, scenic, Phoenix etc. look great to me - but seem to be used
>almost exclusively by Elixir folks.
>
>Has anybody made, for example, a pure Erlang interface to scenic?
>
Well, there are some limitations there.
- You can use mix to build your Erlang project and then use Elixir in
there
- You can use rebar3 with the rebar_mix plugin (along with an Elixir
install) to build Elixir dependencies (see
https://github.com/tsloughter/rebar_mix)
But in all cases, you will not necessarily be able to use Elixir code
when it heavily relies on macros at the call-site rather than
internally. So for example, a lot of usage of _plugs_ in Phoenix rely on
macros running within the controller compilation step to read the
declaration and inline them "somewhere??" with no obvious way to do it
without the macros.
That specific stuff that relies on macros in _your Elixir code_ cannot
be ported to work with _your Erlang code_, because, well, we don't have
the same macro mechanisms available. Similarly, Erlang parse transforms
may not remain fully applicable to Elixir modules in the future.
This means that Ecto, which is a huge part of a lot of web framework
usage, also won't be usable for Erlang users, since it is very
macro-dependent.
But if you look at other libraries (or frameworks) such as Raxx
( https://github.com/CrowdHailer/raxx), then this is a framework that is
fully written in Elixir, yet usable from Erlang (there's a demo at
https://github.com/CrowdHailer/greetings-ace-raxx-erlang-example).
Similarly, a library such as https://github.com/ericmj/decimal for
arbitrary precision arithmetic should be fine to use.
This stuff has been available to rebar3 users since around late 2018, so
I assume it has seen slow adoption due to its being rather new, but we
(rebar3 maintainers) are confident that this bigger interplay is worth
it and should be seeing adoption over time.
Finally, the stuff we're setting up with the Erlang Ecosystem Foundation
is also aimed at making language interplay easier for all languages of
the ecosystem.
_______________________________________________
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
|
|
|
> Similarly, a library such as https://github.com/ericmj/decimal for
> arbitrary precision arithmetic should be fine to use.
Decimal was one of the one I was going to bring up :). That and Timex and postgrex.
The issue I see is, while these may work fine with `rebar_mix`you have to have Elixir installed. This can be fine on a project that isn't a publicly shared lib, it can be awkward for those publicly shared libs.
While an Elixir user will always already have Erlang, the reverse isn't true.
If Elixir could be a rebar3 dependency this issue would go away and I think increase the chances of Erlang projects utilizing Elixir libs.
Tristan
_______________________________________________
erlang-questions mailing list
[hidden email]
http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
|
|
|
It also looks like Andrea is having problems with the mailing
list so, I'm going to copy/paste/forward this on his behalf:
-- BEGIN --
Author of the talk here.
I'm sorry if anything I said came off as bad
taste or even against the Code of Conduct. I jokingly said
I hate Erlang because I knew a lot of members in the
audience and I thought it was obvious it was a joke (my
bad). I also said "just kidding" but maybe I wasn't clear
enough.
I did comment that Erlang's
simple_one_for_one is confusing (which I do believe it
is). I could probably have expanded on that though,
instead of leaving it as a brief remark. But I don't think
criticizing Erlang is not allowed, same as I don't think
criticizing Elixir is not permitted, and that's why I felt
free to make the comment.
I did not make fun of Joe. I included two
pictures of him in the presentation that I found on
Google, since he is an important and known figure in both
Erlang and Elixir communities. One of them was a silly
meme about how great hot code swapping is but severely
underused. I will reach out to Joe and apologize if I
stepped out of line.
Arif, I agree with you that "Elixir
Architecture 101" is a bad title and the presentation was
definitely about Erlang/OTP first and foremost. That's why
I never said "Elixir application" or "this is how you do
this in Elixir", but always said "Elixir and Erlang" or
"Erlang and Elixir". I'm aware Elixir doesn't exist
without Erlang and I'm not at all ungrateful for Erlang.
You will also see the same in Elixir documentation and
most of its ecosystem: you are not building an "Elixir
application" or a "Phoenix application", but an Erlang/OTP
one.
In other talks I've often said things that
promote the use of Erlang in the Elixir community and that
promote the cooperation between the communities, which is
something I strongly believe in.
Anyhow, sorry for the mess. I'll do better
next time.
Cheers,
Andrea Leopardi
-- END --
On 3/24/19 5:40 AM, Joe Armstrong
wrote:
Well I can't really comment on the talk since I wasn't there - so all
I can comment
on are the comments I've read here.
I for one welcome all the things the Elixir folks are doing - but I
have noticed the following:
- Elixir folks are re-using Erlang libraries
- Erlang folks are not (it seems to me) reusing Elixir libraries
The "how to call Erlang from Elixir" documentation is great - the
opposite "how to call Elixir from Elixir" is not (or have I missed something)
Things like nerves, scenic, Phoenix etc. look great to me - but seem to be used
almost exclusively by Elixir folks.
Has anybody made, for example, a pure Erlang interface to scenic?
As for things said in talks that upset people - I have done this myself
on several occasions - you say something that gets misinterpreted
and then everybody gets upset and they don't talk about the subject
of the talk but about the thing that annoyed them.
Andrea mailed me off-list with an apology - funny really when somebody
mails you apologising for something that you didn't even know had happened
but nice of him to do so ...
I'm just curious - has anybody made a pure Erlang interface to scenic?
And since this is the erlang list - how about joining the elixir forum
so you can get
an idea of what's going on over there - lot's of fun stuff I see
Cheers
/Joe
On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 8:27 PM Bryan Paxton [hidden email] wrote:
You need a lagom bottles of scotch :)
On 3/23/19 2:21 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
WTF! They are messing up with Joe?! No triggering...internalize what? What's his name and address?!! I'm flying in. Need a bottle of scotch and a map in that same order. LOL!
On 3/23/19 2:22 PM, Bryan Paxton wrote:
No, no... no triggering happened :) It's better to talk than to internalize... so I'm glad you brought this up. Communication is the only way to resolve misunderstanding :) :heart:
--
Bryan
On 3/23/19 1:15 PM, arif wrote:
ok. i’ll take your word for it. it’s quite possible i got it wrong and i’m sorry to have triggered this then.
thanks for sharing your thoughts
Arif
On 23 Mar 2019, at 18:22, Bryan Paxton [hidden email] wrote:
FWIW the speaker in question has never come across to me as being hostile towards Erlang, etc. They have always been very laid back, open to ideas, erlang, etc. In fact, I was talking to them about Erlang earlier this week and they encouraged me to talk about Erlang in an Elixir dominated environment :) So, I have to assume that things came across the wrong way due to language barriers, etc. Jokes in particular get lost in translation easily and can be seen as something hostile or malicious... The folly of language.
Then there's always the possibility the talk was a behavioral experiment :)
But I'm glad we got a line of communication open as that's the only way that squashes these issues. The BEAM communities need group therapy sometimes IMO :)
There's been a lot of hostility from the Erlang community towards Elixir in the past... and I wonder if the echoes of all that are so ingrained in some of us that we have knee jerk reactions sometimes (i.e., we hear something from an Elixir speaker and absolutely take it the wrong way). Having come from Elixir to Erlang I very much have seen both sides of that coin. I know this much....
The main thing... Elixir is Erlang, LFE is Elang, Efene is Erlang, Gleam is Erlang, etc.... While from one side it appears Elixir is another language... I don't think many, especially in the Elixir community feel that way... especially core members, syntactical differences aside Elixir is erlang. BEAM on!
--
Bryan
On 3/23/19 11:57 AM, Oliver Korpilla wrote:
I hear you. One can only hope. Those things always happen, though, almost invariably. I guess it has mostly to do with the desire to carve one's own niche.
Gesendet: Samstag, 23. März 2019 um 17:46 Uhr
Von: "Bryan Paxton" [hidden email]
An: "Oliver Korpilla" [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email], [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: Aw: Re: [erlang-questions] Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.
I hear ya... I was being lazy :) I see who it is and I have to wonder if some of what he said was in gest? Maybe just didn't come across right? I hope so :(
--
Bryan
On 3/23/19 11:44 AM, Oliver Korpilla wrote:
I'd prefer no calling out of the name, what good will that do?
Gesendet: Samstag, 23. März 2019 um 17:36 Uhr
Von: "Bryan Paxton" [hidden email]
An: [hidden email], [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [erlang-questions] Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.
Who was the speaker?
On 3/23/19 11:13 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
Yesterday I attended the Code Beam Lite conference in Bologna, Italy. It
ended with a keynote by an Elixir Core Team member, entitled "Elixir
Architecture 101".
At the end of an otherwise interesting talk, which started with the
presenter saying he hated Erlang (some in the audience found it funny)
and in which he occasionally made fun of Joe and of the perceived
shortcomings of Erlang, I couldn’t help wonder where Elixir was in all
that talk, since the “Elixir” architecture presented, was practically
OTP.
I find this very much in bad taste and not helpful towards a beneficial
sharing and spreading of knowledge. I don’t know if the Code of Conduct
of the Code Beam conferences contemplates this, but I would favour
forbidding it.
If Elixir has something good to offer, and I think it has, let its
community showcase that, advance the common good and knowledge, and not
promote its cause through what, in my eyes, would amount to plagiarism,
viz. letting things pass for Elixir, when they are Erlang/OTP, nor
through ridiculing anyone or anything, least of all the very things or
persons that made it even possible. It not only looks childish to me, I
believe it is also damaging to the many excellent minds in the very
Elixir community.
Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please
demand it.
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On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 1:54 PM Fred Hebert < [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 03/24, Joe Armstrong wrote:
> >I for one welcome all the things the Elixir folks are doing - but I
> >have noticed the following:
> >
> >- Elixir folks are re-using Erlang libraries
> >- Erlang folks are not (it seems to me) reusing Elixir libraries
> >
> >The "how to call Erlang from Elixir" documentation is great - the
> >opposite "how to call Elixir from Elixir" is not (or have I missed something)
> >
> >Things like nerves, scenic, Phoenix etc. look great to me - but seem to be used
> >almost exclusively by Elixir folks.
> >
> >Has anybody made, for example, a pure Erlang interface to scenic?
> >
>
> Well, there are some limitations there.
>
> - You can use mix to build your Erlang project and then use Elixir in
> there
> - You can use rebar3 with the rebar_mix plugin (along with an Elixir
> install) to build Elixir dependencies (see
> https://github.com/tsloughter/rebar_mix)
>
> But in all cases, you will not necessarily be able to use Elixir code
> when it heavily relies on macros at the call-site rather than
> internally. So for example, a lot of usage of _plugs_ in Phoenix rely on
> macros running within the controller compilation step to read the
> declaration and inline them "somewhere??" with no obvious way to do it
> without the macros.
>
> That specific stuff that relies on macros in _your Elixir code_ cannot
> be ported to work with _your Erlang code_, because, well, we don't have
> the same macro mechanisms available. Similarly, Erlang parse transforms
> may not remain fully applicable to Elixir modules in the future.
>
> This means that Ecto, which is a huge part of a lot of web framework
> usage, also won't be usable for Erlang users, since it is very
> macro-dependent.
Interesting - I'd imagined that after compilation you'd just end up
with beam code files after which you could call them from Erlang ...
Could this be rectified by a "better" macro processor for erlang - more
in the style of the Elixir macro processor ???
>
> But if you look at other libraries (or frameworks) such as Raxx
> ( https://github.com/CrowdHailer/raxx), then this is a framework that is
> fully written in Elixir, yet usable from Erlang (there's a demo at
> https://github.com/CrowdHailer/greetings-ace-raxx-erlang-example).
> Similarly, a library such as https://github.com/ericmj/decimal for
> arbitrary precision arithmetic should be fine to use.
>
> This stuff has been available to rebar3 users since around late 2018, so
> I assume it has seen slow adoption due to its being rather new, but we
> (rebar3 maintainers) are confident that this bigger interplay is worth
> it and should be seeing adoption over time.
>
> Finally, the stuff we're setting up with the Erlang Ecosystem Foundation
> is also aimed at making language interplay easier for all languages of
> the ecosystem.
This would be great
/Joe
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On 3/24/19 11:26 AM, Joe Armstrong wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 1:54 PM Fred Hebert < [hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 03/24, Joe Armstrong wrote:
>>> I for one welcome all the things the Elixir folks are doing - but I
>>> have noticed the following:
>>>
>>> - Elixir folks are re-using Erlang libraries
>>> - Erlang folks are not (it seems to me) reusing Elixir libraries
>>>
>>> The "how to call Erlang from Elixir" documentation is great - the
>>> opposite "how to call Elixir from Elixir" is not (or have I missed something)
>>>
>>> Things like nerves, scenic, Phoenix etc. look great to me - but seem to be used
>>> almost exclusively by Elixir folks.
>>>
>>> Has anybody made, for example, a pure Erlang interface to scenic?
>>>
>> Well, there are some limitations there.
>>
>> - You can use mix to build your Erlang project and then use Elixir in
>> there
>> - You can use rebar3 with the rebar_mix plugin (along with an Elixir
>> install) to build Elixir dependencies (see
>> https://github.com/tsloughter/rebar_mix)
>>
>> But in all cases, you will not necessarily be able to use Elixir code
>> when it heavily relies on macros at the call-site rather than
>> internally. So for example, a lot of usage of _plugs_ in Phoenix rely on
>> macros running within the controller compilation step to read the
>> declaration and inline them "somewhere??" with no obvious way to do it
>> without the macros.
>>
>> That specific stuff that relies on macros in _your Elixir code_ cannot
>> be ported to work with _your Erlang code_, because, well, we don't have
>> the same macro mechanisms available. Similarly, Erlang parse transforms
>> may not remain fully applicable to Elixir modules in the future.
>>
>> This means that Ecto, which is a huge part of a lot of web framework
>> usage, also won't be usable for Erlang users, since it is very
>> macro-dependent.
> Interesting - I'd imagined that after compilation you'd just end up
> with beam code files after which you could call them from Erlang ...
>
> Could this be rectified by a "better" macro processor for erlang - more
> in the style of the Elixir macro processor ???
I'd like to add on top of this the smallest part of the problem, but
what I see as a problem none the less...
'ManyWouldPrefer':'not_to_have_to_do_this?'(Please)
As stated, smallest of all the problems, but whether we like it or not
UX matters. This not only applies to using Elixir but LFE, etc. The
only solutions to that problem that I could think of involve perhaps too
much trickery, not really sure how the community feels about said
trickery though. That is to say, to squash this problem effectively
you'd have to translate/generate modules in other BEAM languages to pure
erlang (or generate pure erlang interfaces), prefix the module names
with 'elixir_' or 'lfe_' and then hack the compiler, shell, etc. to
treat this as special so that in the end we would be using
many_would_prefer:not_to_have_to_do_this(Please). Or instead of said
trickery, elixir_many_would_prefer:not_to_have_to_do_this(Please).
This brings me to another point and something I didn't understand until
recently. Yes, with the rebar_mix plugin and so forth you end up using
the artifact (beam file) compiled by the given beam language. As Tristan
said, this requires you to have Elixir installed... it's not that big of
a deal perhaps... but say you would simply like to bring in emj's
Decimal lib as pointed out by Tristan... Do you really want to bring in
all of Elixir just to use said lib? It seems a bit much. This is
precisely why I "ported" Elixir's Version module to pure Erlang. Now,
you don't need to bring in Elixir to use a fully compatible semver
lib... but it's wrong... I felt bad in doing it... there is now more
code in the world and that's the last thing we need.
What I want (dreams and wishes):
Universal BEAM/Erlang libs. It would be the bees knees and a HUGE win
for the entire community for all to seamlessly be able use erlang,
elixir, lfe, <insert all the other BEAM langs here> without having to
bring in the entire language. If I'm not using the language directly,
why do I need that? How this could be achieved, have no idea, erlang
core perhaps... perhaps it's more complicated than that...
--
Bryan
>
>> But if you look at other libraries (or frameworks) such as Raxx
>> ( https://github.com/CrowdHailer/raxx), then this is a framework that is
>> fully written in Elixir, yet usable from Erlang (there's a demo at
>> https://github.com/CrowdHailer/greetings-ace-raxx-erlang-example).
>> Similarly, a library such as https://github.com/ericmj/decimal for
>> arbitrary precision arithmetic should be fine to use.
>>
>> This stuff has been available to rebar3 users since around late 2018, so
>> I assume it has seen slow adoption due to its being rather new, but we
>> (rebar3 maintainers) are confident that this bigger interplay is worth
>> it and should be seeing adoption over time.
>>
>> Finally, the stuff we're setting up with the Erlang Ecosystem Foundation
>> is also aimed at making language interplay easier for all languages of
>> the ecosystem.
> This would be great
>
> /Joe
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What if it was allowed for package maintainers to publish pre-compiled BEAM files to Hex? I would imagine that everyone who is pushing packages to Hex also has the ability to compile those packages on the machine they’re using to publish.
There are clearly a whole ton of reasons why that could be a bad idea (and probably wouldn’t even work for a large chunk of macro-heavy Elixir libraries that rely on Mix configuration to be present at compile time), but it would also make for the easiest story for cross-language library sharing.
It pushes the compilation step from the user of a package to the maintainer of that package, but if CLI tools knew where to put these pre-compiled BEAM files so users didn’t have to think about it, then it could make usage of some libraries much easier.
It could be an optional thing for those maintainers who want to go the extra mile to make cross-language use of their packages easier. I know I’d be happy to take that extra step when publishing new versions of Benchee if it meant Erlang/LFE/etc. users could have an easier time using it.
Or it could just make everything worse and more complicated 😇 but it seemed like it was worth bringing up.
On 3/24/19 11:26 AM, Joe Armstrong wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 1:54 PM Fred Hebert <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 03/24, Joe Armstrong wrote:
>>> I for one welcome all the things the Elixir folks are doing - but I
>>> have noticed the following:
>>>
>>> - Elixir folks are re-using Erlang libraries
>>> - Erlang folks are not (it seems to me) reusing Elixir libraries
>>>
>>> The "how to call Erlang from Elixir" documentation is great - the
>>> opposite "how to call Elixir from Elixir" is not (or have I missed something)
>>>
>>> Things like nerves, scenic, Phoenix etc. look great to me - but seem to be used
>>> almost exclusively by Elixir folks.
>>>
>>> Has anybody made, for example, a pure Erlang interface to scenic?
>>>
>> Well, there are some limitations there.
>>
>> - You can use mix to build your Erlang project and then use Elixir in
>> there
>> - You can use rebar3 with the rebar_mix plugin (along with an Elixir
>> install) to build Elixir dependencies (see
>> https://github.com/tsloughter/rebar_mix)
>>
>> But in all cases, you will not necessarily be able to use Elixir code
>> when it heavily relies on macros at the call-site rather than
>> internally. So for example, a lot of usage of _plugs_ in Phoenix rely on
>> macros running within the controller compilation step to read the
>> declaration and inline them "somewhere??" with no obvious way to do it
>> without the macros.
>>
>> That specific stuff that relies on macros in _your Elixir code_ cannot
>> be ported to work with _your Erlang code_, because, well, we don't have
>> the same macro mechanisms available. Similarly, Erlang parse transforms
>> may not remain fully applicable to Elixir modules in the future.
>>
>> This means that Ecto, which is a huge part of a lot of web framework
>> usage, also won't be usable for Erlang users, since it is very
>> macro-dependent.
> Interesting - I'd imagined that after compilation you'd just end up
> with beam code files after which you could call them from Erlang ...
>
> Could this be rectified by a "better" macro processor for erlang - more
> in the style of the Elixir macro processor ???
I'd like to add on top of this the smallest part of the problem, but
what I see as a problem none the less...
'ManyWouldPrefer':'not_to_have_to_do_this?'(Please)
As stated, smallest of all the problems, but whether we like it or not
UX matters. This not only applies to using Elixir but LFE, etc. The
only solutions to that problem that I could think of involve perhaps too
much trickery, not really sure how the community feels about said
trickery though. That is to say, to squash this problem effectively
you'd have to translate/generate modules in other BEAM languages to pure
erlang (or generate pure erlang interfaces), prefix the module names
with 'elixir_' or 'lfe_' and then hack the compiler, shell, etc. to
treat this as special so that in the end we would be using
many_would_prefer:not_to_have_to_do_this(Please). Or instead of said
trickery, elixir_many_would_prefer:not_to_have_to_do_this(Please).
This brings me to another point and something I didn't understand until
recently. Yes, with the rebar_mix plugin and so forth you end up using
the artifact (beam file) compiled by the given beam language. As Tristan
said, this requires you to have Elixir installed... it's not that big of
a deal perhaps... but say you would simply like to bring in emj's
Decimal lib as pointed out by Tristan... Do you really want to bring in
all of Elixir just to use said lib? It seems a bit much. This is
precisely why I "ported" Elixir's Version module to pure Erlang. Now,
you don't need to bring in Elixir to use a fully compatible semver
lib... but it's wrong... I felt bad in doing it... there is now more
code in the world and that's the last thing we need.
What I want (dreams and wishes):
Universal BEAM/Erlang libs. It would be the bees knees and a HUGE win
for the entire community for all to seamlessly be able use erlang,
elixir, lfe, <insert all the other BEAM langs here> without having to
bring in the entire language. If I'm not using the language directly,
why do I need that? How this could be achieved, have no idea, erlang
core perhaps... perhaps it's more complicated than that...
--
Bryan
>
>> But if you look at other libraries (or frameworks) such as Raxx
>> (https://github.com/CrowdHailer/raxx), then this is a framework that is
>> fully written in Elixir, yet usable from Erlang (there's a demo at
>> https://github.com/CrowdHailer/greetings-ace-raxx-erlang-example).
>> Similarly, a library such as https://github.com/ericmj/decimal for
>> arbitrary precision arithmetic should be fine to use.
>>
>> This stuff has been available to rebar3 users since around late 2018, so
>> I assume it has seen slow adoption due to its being rather new, but we
>> (rebar3 maintainers) are confident that this bigger interplay is worth
>> it and should be seeing adoption over time.
>>
>> Finally, the stuff we're setting up with the Erlang Ecosystem Foundation
>> is also aimed at making language interplay easier for all languages of
>> the ecosystem.
> This would be great
>
> /Joe
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> What if it was allowed for package maintainers to publish pre-compiled BEAM files to Hex? I would imagine that everyone who is pushing packages to Hex also has the ability to compile those packages on the machine they’re using to publish. Unfortunately that wouldn't solve the issue with macros, because macros are still compiled to regular BEAMs. A precompiled BEAM wouldn't change the module name nor the name of a function. The incompatibility is in the calling convention and in the different ASTs (similar issue to LFE).
I feel there are some things that could be done from the Elixir side to make things easier (it could maybe ship with a parse_transform?) but I feel that, for full convenience, (small) changes would need to be done to Erlang too, such as allowing ? and ! at the end of atoms without quoting (note: I am not proposing it, just commenting on it).
Unfortunately, on the topic of macros, I can't see them working from Erlang at all. But I don't consider it a bad thing. Well-designed libraries should use macros just a thin layer on top of a proper functional APIs. For example, the macro layer in Plug is very thin and it should be relatively straight-forward to write your own plug web apps in Erlang. But I also feel that even if we somehow port the Plug macro conveniences to Erlang, people won't enjoy using it if you have to write things such as 'Elixir.Plug':send_resp(...).
Maybe if we overcome the initial awkwardness which is the different namespace rules, there will be a growing interest in solving those problems.
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