Erlang Book - again

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Erlang Book - again

Dmitrii Dimandt
What are the chances of "Concurrent Programming in Erlang" book becoming available online in its entirety?

Why I'm asking this is that the book is clearly out of print (see Amazon here and here). The only available books are available at ridiculous prices.

Practical Common Lisp has been online forever, it seems. And the publisher gave the author perennial rights to publish the book on the web.
Moreover, Paul Graham's "On Lisp" is now also available for download.

May be Prentice Hall could be forced into giving the rights to the book back to its authors? And may be the authors could be persuaded to create an online copy of it? :)

Or, better still, may be the authors could be persuaded to write a new book :)
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Re: Erlang Book - again

Dmitrii Dimandt
Sorry, the book is available in the UK, but the question remains.

On 8/29/06, Dmitrii Dimandt <[hidden email]> wrote:
What are the chances of "Concurrent Programming in Erlang" book becoming available online in its entirety?

Why I'm asking this is that the book is clearly out of print (see Amazon <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Concurrent-Programming-in/dp/013508301X/sr=8-1/qid=1156864630/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-0196500-5209562?ie=UTF8" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> here and <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Concurrent-Programming-in/dp/B000GXDXH8/sr=8-12/qid=1156864630/ref=sr_1_12/104-0196500-5209562?ie=UTF8" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">here ). The only available books are available at <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/013508301X/ref=dp_olp_0/104-0196500-5209562?ie=UTF8&amp;condition=all" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> ridiculous prices.

<a href="http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">Practical Common Lisp has been online forever, it seems. And the publisher gave the author perennial rights to publish the book on the web.
Moreover, Paul Graham's "On Lisp" is now also <a href="http://www.paulgraham.com/onlisp.html" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">available for download.

May be Prentice Hall could be forced into giving the rights to the book back to its authors? And may be the authors could be persuaded to create an online copy of it? :)

Or, better still, may be the authors could be persuaded to write a new book :)

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RE: Erlang Book - again

Joe Armstrong (TN/EAB)
In reply to this post by Dmitrii Dimandt
I don't think PH could be forced to do this - persuaded perhaps - forced no.
 
I'll write and ask them.
 
The book is however sadly out of date.
 
For those who are interested I have started writing a new book.
 
It has proved to be difficult to find a publisher so I will be using a print on demand service to print the book.
 
I hope you'll all buy it. If you want any particular material covering send me a mail.
 
/Joe
 
 
 
 
 
 


From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dmitrii Dimandt
Sent: den 29 augusti 2006 17:26
To: Erlang-Questions Mailing List
Subject: Erlang Book - again

What are the chances of "Concurrent Programming in Erlang" book becoming available online in its entirety?

Why I'm asking this is that the book is clearly out of print (see Amazon here and here). The only available books are available at ridiculous prices.

Practical Common Lisp has been online forever, it seems. And the publisher gave the author perennial rights to publish the book on the web.
Moreover, Paul Graham's "On Lisp" is now also available for download.

May be Prentice Hall could be forced into giving the rights to the book back to its authors? And may be the authors could be persuaded to create an online copy of it? :)

Or, better still, may be the authors could be persuaded to write a new book :)
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Re: Erlang Book - again

Joel Reymont
Joe,

I hope you will find this example encouraging:

http://www.ffconsultancy.com/products/ocaml_for_scientists/

I recently bought this book (yes, for ~ EUR 130) since there's no  
decent alternative.

On Aug 29, 2006, at 4:40 PM, Joe Armstrong ((TN/EAB)) wrote:

> For those who are interested I have started writing a new book.
>
> It has proved to be difficult to find a publisher so I will be using a
> print on demand service to print the book.

--
http://wagerlabs.com/





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Re: Erlang Book - again

Simon Chappell
In reply to this post by Joe Armstrong (TN/EAB)
On 8/29/06, Joe Armstrong (TN/EAB) <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I don't think PH could be forced to do this - persuaded perhaps - forced no.
>
> I'll write and ask them.

Always worth a try. :-)

> The book is however sadly out of date.
>
> For those who are interested I have started writing a new book.

Woo hoo! Christmas is coming early this year.

> It has proved to be difficult to find a publisher so I will be using a print
> on demand service to print the book.

Please let us know how this works for you. Have you decided which one
yet? I've heard good things about lulu.com, but I've never tried it.

> I hope you'll all buy it. If you want any particular material covering send
> me a mail.

A few starters:

* Remember us command-line folks. Almost every example or tutorial
that I've seen has assumed that you were already at an "erl" prompt.
Fine, but some of us like to run our code from the command-line like
God intended. :-)

* A chapter or two (or appendix) on transitioning from procedural
languages would be wonderful. I'm completely sold on the idea of
Erlang, but I keep getting hung up on the differences. For Erlang to
make a dent in the mainstream, you've gotta help us poor procedural
types make the leap to functional and concurrent programming. Loops
especially. Ok, I *know* that loops = tail-recursion, but give us some
solid steps on how to change our Java loops to tail-recursion.

* How to extend our installation of Erlang with goodies from the
Jungeral et al. What is the Erlang way to add libraries? In the Java
world we add it to the CLASSPATH. How do you do it?

* How do I test? I'm a big time user of JUnit in the Java world. How
do I do that in Erlang-space?

* Building and packaging. How? With what? What is the Erlang
equivalent of Ant? Make? "Ent"?

* Examples of the stuff that people really do: file handling, socket
handling, working with *spit* XML *spit*.

How's that for a start? :-)

Simon

--
www.simonpeter.org
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Re: Erlang Book - again

Dunceor
In reply to this post by Dmitrii Dimandt
I remember taking a class at Uppsala university, the teacher there had tons of those books on his room because Ericsson gave them a whole bunch. The first class where I actually didn't have to buy the litterature =)
 
I agree also with Joe Armstrong that the book is pretty much out-of-date even though it's good to learn the basics. I work at Sony-Ericsson and I saw that there is a bounch at work, I'll see if I can get my hands on a few of them.
 
Joe: I would be interested in buying the book unless it's a outrageous price (~ >100$).
 
Best Regards,
Karl

 
On 8/29/06, Dmitrii Dimandt <[hidden email]> wrote:
Sorry, the book <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Concurrent-Programming-in/dp/013508301X/sr=8-1/qid=1156864630/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-0196500-5209562?ie=UTF8" target="_blank"> is available in the UK, but the question remains.


On 8/29/06, Dmitrii Dimandt <[hidden email]> wrote:
What are the chances of "Concurrent Programming in Erlang" book becoming available online in its entirety?

Why I'm asking this is that the book is clearly out of print (see Amazon <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.amazon.com/Concurrent-Programming-in/dp/013508301X/sr=8-1/qid=1156864630/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-0196500-5209562?ie=UTF8" target="_blank"> here and <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.amazon.com/Concurrent-Programming-in/dp/B000GXDXH8/sr=8-12/qid=1156864630/ref=sr_1_12/104-0196500-5209562?ie=UTF8" target="_blank">here ). The only available books are available at <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/013508301X/ref=dp_olp_0/104-0196500-5209562?ie=UTF8&amp;condition=all" target="_blank"> ridiculous prices.

<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/" target="_blank">Practical Common Lisp has been online forever, it seems. And the publisher gave the author perennial rights to publish the book on the web.
Moreover, Paul Graham's "On Lisp" is now also <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.paulgraham.com/onlisp.html" target="_blank">available for download.

May be Prentice Hall could be forced into giving the rights to the book back to its authors? And may be the authors could be persuaded to create an online copy of it? :)

Or, better still, may be the authors could be persuaded to write a new book :)
 


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Re: Erlang Book - again

Richard Cameron
In reply to this post by Joe Armstrong (TN/EAB)

On 29 Aug 2006, at 16:40, Joe Armstrong ((TN/EAB)) wrote:

> For those who are interested I have started writing a new book.
>
> It has proved to be difficult to find a publisher so I will be  
> using a print on demand service to print the book.

Has anyone pitched the idea of an Erlang book to O'Reilly recently?  
Of all the publishers I can think of, they seem to be the ones who  
continually dredge popular opinion to try to predict what the Next  
Big Thing(tm) is going to be. Whereas our beloved British government  
utilises focus groups and cappuccinos to decide future legislation,  
O'Reilly seem to trawl through blog posts and social bookmarking  
sites just to get down with the kids and see what they're "digging".  
They've even gone to the bother of setting up things like this  
<http://buzz.research.yahoo.com/>.

I've noticed there's been a glut of Erlang stories in the last few  
weeks, especially on <http://programming.reddit.com/>. It seems that  
anything to do with concurrency or Erlang becomes an instant hit.  
While this is obviously a great thing for the evangelical erlangers,  
all the articles (out of necessity - you can't fit a textbook in a  
blog post) are very "big picture". There's lots of very sensible  
advocacy of how one ought to think about concurrency both mentally  
and in code, lots of analogies with the real world, and it's  
obviously pulling in the crowds. The trouble is that there's no way  
of saying "If you liked the ideas in the article then buy the book  
and see how it *actually* works."

What seems to be an especially acute problem for us at the moment in  
our office is coverage of OTP. We find that it's pretty much trivial  
to get someone to pick up Erlang syntax and write code to spawn  
processes and send messages. Where everything tends to break down is  
when I try explaining what OTP even *is*. I really want a text which  
explains the ideas behind, say, gen_servers and shows why you'd even  
want to use something as abstruse as them in the first place.

The C++ brigade have that incredibly dry and dense "Design Patterns"  
text which they squabble over when they're trying to put a name to  
part of a UML diagram (a little like trying to name the  
constellations). While I'm not proposing that anyone writes anything  
like that for Erlang, I would like something which gives an idea of  
how you go about designing software by drawing little boxes on a  
piece of paper representing processes, and a whole bunch of arrows  
scribbled on top representing messages. There are certain motifs  
which crop up again and again - basically the standard OTP behaviours  
- and it would be nice if there were a text which explained what  
these patterns are, and how you can go about implementing them (or  
getting them for free from the standard behaviours).

I first learnt Erlang by reading up on all the ideas and realising  
that it was a rather strange (or, at least, different) way of  
programming to anything I'd done before and that it was probably  
quite powerful (although I didn't realise how powerful at the time).  
I then forgot about it for five years until I actually had a project  
which needed it. The first code I wrote in anger was a collection of  
horrible ad-hoc message passing protocols which re-implement a lot of  
stuff found in OTP. I didn't know about gen_server:reply/2, for  
example, and I still have the Heath Robinson code I wrote to try to  
reinvent the wheel running in my production system. I'm too scared to  
touch it at the moment, but I expect it'll eventually end up on the  
chopping block to be replaced with a much simpler and neater OTP  
implementation at some point.

Staring out, it felt like someone had handed me a very powerful but  
dangerous power-tool (Erlang), but not quite explained how to use it  
properly. As a result, I tore off writing software like a cowboy  
builder who had bought a bunch of tools off his mate in the pub and  
then decided to go into business building patios. What I wished I had  
at the time was a text explaining roughly how one ought to go about  
things sensibly, and in non-cowboy fashion. I eventually got that by  
going on one of Francesco's training courses. I'm glad I did, but  
only because there was no other realistic way of obtaining that  
information.

Paradoxically, since then I've found myself using progressively less  
and less of the standard OTP behaviours and more and more "pure  
Erlang" using sys and proc_lib. I couldn't have understood any of  
this if I hadn't picked up OTP on the way, and that's the big thing  
which is missing from any Erlang book (unless you happen to read  
French).

Richard.
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Re: Erlang Book - again

Simon Chappell
On 8/29/06, Richard Cameron <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 29 Aug 2006, at 16:40, Joe Armstrong ((TN/EAB)) wrote:
>
> > For those who are interested I have started writing a new book.
> >
> > It has proved to be difficult to find a publisher so I will be
> > using a print on demand service to print the book.
>
> Has anyone pitched the idea of an Erlang book to O'Reilly recently?
> Of all the publishers I can think of, they seem to be the ones who
> continually dredge popular opinion to try to predict what the Next
> Big Thing(tm) is going to be. Whereas our beloved British government
> utilises focus groups and cappuccinos to decide future legislation,
> O'Reilly seem to trawl through blog posts and social bookmarking
> sites just to get down with the kids and see what they're "digging".
> They've even gone to the bother of setting up things like this
> <http://buzz.research.yahoo.com/>.

Actually, I had gotten the impression that Apress was the forward
looking publisher these days. I'm not always as impressed with
O'Reilly as I used to be.

Simon

--
www.simonpeter.org
dmz
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Re: Erlang Book - again

dmz
In reply to this post by Richard Cameron
I am learning Erlang from the book by Mickaël Rémond "Programmation Erlang".
Unfortunately it is written in french so it is not accessible to a wider range of people. So far, it is a good read.
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Re: Erlang Book - again

Dmitrii Dimandt
In reply to this post by Joe Armstrong (TN/EAB)
On 8/29/06, Joe Armstrong (TN/EAB) <[hidden email]> wrote:
I don't think PH could be forced to do this - persuaded perhaps - forced no.

Well, that's what I meant. More or less :)

I'll write and ask them.
 
The book is however sadly out of date.

It still could be a good read, I think.

For those who are interested I have started writing a new book.
 


It has proved to be difficult to find a publisher so I will be using a print on demand service to print the book.
 
I hope you'll all buy it. If you want any particular material covering send me a mail.

Yes. Considering the fact that I'm already eyeing the old book on Amazon UK, I'll definitely by the new one!

/Joe
 
 
 
 
 
 


From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dmitrii Dimandt
Sent: den 29 augusti 2006 17:26
To: Erlang-Questions Mailing List
Subject: Erlang Book - again

What are the chances of "Concurrent Programming in Erlang" book becoming available online in its entirety?

Why I'm asking this is that the book is clearly out of print (see Amazon <a style="font-size: 44.9px;" href="http://www.amazon.com/Concurrent-Programming-in/dp/013508301X/sr=8-1/qid=1156864630/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-0196500-5209562?ie=UTF8" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> here and <a style="font-size: 44.9px;" href="http://www.amazon.com/Concurrent-Programming-in/dp/B000GXDXH8/sr=8-12/qid=1156864630/ref=sr_1_12/104-0196500-5209562?ie=UTF8" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> here). The only available books are available at <a style="font-size: 44.9px;" href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/013508301X/ref=dp_olp_0/104-0196500-5209562?ie=UTF8&amp;condition=all" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> ridiculous prices.

<a style="font-size: 44.9px;" href="http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">Practical Common Lisp has been online forever, it seems. And the publisher gave the author perennial rights to publish the book on the web.
Moreover, Paul Graham's "On Lisp" is now also <a style="font-size: 44.9px;" href="http://www.paulgraham.com/onlisp.html" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">available for download.

May be Prentice Hall could be forced into giving the rights to the book back to its authors? And may be the authors could be persuaded to create an online copy of it? :)

Or, better still, may be the authors could be persuaded to write a new book :)

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Re: Erlang Book - again

ke han
In reply to this post by Joe Armstrong (TN/EAB)

On Aug 29, 2006, at 11:40 PM, Joe Armstrong ((TN/EAB)) wrote:


 
For those who are interested I have started writing a new book.
 


I'm sure many of us will buy copies...

As there are no shortage of opinions on what could go into such a book, I'll add my wish list / opinions on scope and style ;-)

1 - "beta books", as done with Pragmatic Programmer is fantastic!!!  You buy the book while its being written, there are online forums for feedback and errata...The customer can go online and regenerate a PDF at any time from the latest work in progress...the PDFs contain a footnote on each page showing the customer name as to hopefully avoid "sharing" of the e-book.  The latest Prag Pogrammer book Agile Programming in Rails is very well written; structure and content.  Have you talked to Prag Prog about publishing?
2 - don't confuse the reader (or thicken the book) with too many alternative options and outdated programming style.  Go with current best practice only...this goes for things like which functions in OTP are best, using the latest exception handling and not bothering to explain how it used to work, using plain_fsm instead of (or at least in addition to)  gen_server or gen_fsm (I feel erlang looses lots of adopters when they go from reading the initial old erlang book which shows the simplicity of writing interacting processes and then this new erlanger starts to write gen_server and gen_fsm modules which have an implementation style which does does not map closely to what they just learned..
3 - will the book try to cover telecom example apps or web 2.0 app examples?  or both?  maybe if its both, it should be a 2 or 3 book series instead one monster book.  book 1: erlang, book 2: OTP, book 3: "erlang best practices" or "erlang by example".

some of these thoughts are in response to a contents list you published a few months ago.  I won't dig it up and critic it as I'm sure its evolved since then.  But I do remember feeling that less than half the contents appealed to me.  This isn't too much of a problem as I have bought many tech books simply for one chapter of interest.

thanks, ke han

 
/Joe
 
 
 
 
 
 


From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dmitrii Dimandt
Sent: den 29 augusti 2006 17:26
To: Erlang-Questions Mailing List
Subject: Erlang Book - again

What are the chances of "Concurrent Programming in Erlang" book becoming available online in its entirety?

Why I'm asking this is that the book is clearly out of print (see Amazon here and here). The only available books are available at ridiculous prices.

Practical Common Lisp has been online forever, it seems. And the publisher gave the author perennial rights to publish the book on the web.
Moreover, Paul Graham's "On Lisp" is now also available for download.

May be Prentice Hall could be forced into giving the rights to the book back to its authors? And may be the authors could be persuaded to create an online copy of it? :)

Or, better still, may be the authors could be persuaded to write a new book :)

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Re: Erlang Book - again

Chris Campbell-2
In reply to this post by Joe Armstrong (TN/EAB)
On 29/08/06, Joe Armstrong (TN/EAB) <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I hope you'll all buy it. If you want any particular material covering send
> me a mail.

I'd like to see stuff on the OTP.  Erlang as a language is fairly easy
to learn, but learning to use the OTP properly takes a lot longer.
Also, please make the examples interesting!  If I spend good money on
another book that spends ages on how cool it is to be able to write
the factorial function in N lines I think I'll scream ;)

Chris
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Re: Erlang Book - again

Dmitrii Dimandt


On 8/30/06, Chris Campbell <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 29/08/06, Joe Armstrong (TN/EAB) <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I hope you'll all buy it. If you want any particular material covering send
> me a mail.

I'd like to see stuff on the OTP.  Erlang as a language is fairly easy
to learn, but learning to use the OTP properly takes a lot longer.
Also, please make the examples interesting!  If I spend good money on
another book that spends ages on how cool it is to be able to write
the factorial function in N lines I think I'll scream ;)

Indeed :) Quicksort example in the docs is way better (though more mind-twisting for those not comfortable with list comprehensions)
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Re: [erlang-questions] Erlang Book - again

Simon  Thompson
In reply to this post by Dmitrii Dimandt


great idea! A related suggestion is that as well as making it freely
available is also to make it available via a "print on demand"  service,
so that you can get a book-like copy if you wish. You can see an example
of this at

  http://www.cafepress.com/buy/book/-/pv_design_prod/pg_4/p_storeid.11895795/pNo_11895795/id_4615872/opt_/fpt_________________H/c_0/

Kind regards,

Simon


On Tue, 29 Aug 2006, Dmitrii Dimandt wrote:

> What are the chances of "Concurrent Programming in Erlang" book becoming
> available online in its entirety?
>
> Why I'm asking this is that the book is clearly out of print (see Amazon
> here<http://www.amazon.com/Concurrent-Programming-in/dp/013508301X/sr=8-1/qid=1156864630/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-0196500-5209562?ie=UTF8>and
> here<http://www.amazon.com/Concurrent-Programming-in/dp/B000GXDXH8/sr=8-12/qid=1156864630/ref=sr_1_12/104-0196500-5209562?ie=UTF8>).
> The only available books are available at ridiculous
> prices<http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/013508301X/ref=dp_olp_0/104-0196500-5209562?ie=UTF8&condition=all>
> .
>
> Practical Common Lisp <http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/> has been online
> forever, it seems. And the publisher gave the author perennial rights to
> publish the book on the web.
> Moreover, Paul Graham's "On Lisp" is now also available for
> download<http://www.paulgraham.com/onlisp.html>
> .
>
> May be Prentice Hall could be forced into giving the rights to the book back
> to its authors? And may be the authors could be persuaded to create an
> online copy of it? :)
>
> Or, better still, may be the authors could be persuaded to write a new book
> :)
>
_______________________________________________
erlang-questions mailing list
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Erlang Book - again

fbg111
In reply to this post by Simon Chappell

Agreed, it seems O'reilly drank a little too much
http://gregluck.com/blog/archives/2006/07/report_from_osc.html Ruby Koolaid
, though no harm in submitting the Erlang book for his consideration, while
perhaps suggesting he check out programming.reddit.com for evidence of
strong interest in concurrent programming.

And I second both Apress and Pragmatic Programmers, both would be great
possibilities for publishing an Erlang book.


Simon Chappell wrote:

>
> Actually, I had gotten the impression that Apress was the forward
> looking publisher these days. I'm not always as impressed with
> O'Reilly as I used to be.
>
> Simon
>
> --
> www.simonpeter.org
>

--
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Erlang-Book---again-tf2184476.html#a6184444
Sent from the Erlang Questions forum at Nabble.com.



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Re: Erlang Book - again

kurtosis
In reply to this post by Simon Chappell
Agreed, it seems O'reilly drank a little too much Ruby Koolaid, though no harm in submitting the Erlang book for his consideration, while perhaps suggesting he check out programming.reddit.com for evidence of strong interest in concurrent programming.

And I second both Apress and Pragmatic Programmers, both would be great possibilities for publishing an Erlang book.

Simon Chappell wrote
Actually, I had gotten the impression that Apress was the forward
looking publisher these days. I'm not always as impressed with
O'Reilly as I used to be.

Simon

--
www.simonpeter.org
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Re: [erlang-questions] Erlang Book - again

Oscar Hellström
Hi,

It is possible to buy the Erlang-book at the Cremona bookshop at
Lindholmen, Gothenburg, Sweden. It comes at a price of 600SEK, which is
about 60EUR.

The book has been listed as course literature for Software Engineering
and Management at IT University of Göteborg, but as has been said, it's
a bit out of date, so not many students buy it.

SIDENOTE:
Could the Reply-to field be set to the mailing list by the mailing list
application, this would be very convenient.

Regards
--
Oscar Hellström, [hidden email]
web: personal.oscarh.net
jid: [hidden email]

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Re: [erlang-questions] : Erlang Book - again

Raimo Niskanen-2
On Thu, Sep 07, 2006 at 12:42:19PM +0200, Oscar Hellström wrote:
> Hi,
:
:text deleted
:
> SIDENOTE:
> Could the Reply-to field be set to the mailing list by the mailing list
> application, this would be very convenient.
>

Well, this is the defaul setting for Mailman, and they
"strongly recommend" it should be so. They also supply a link
        "`Reply-To' Munging Considered Harmful"
        http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
       
So, give me a good enough reason that beats those arguments.

Unfortunately their contradicting link
        "Reply-To Munging Considered Useful"
        http://www.metasystema.org/essays/reply-to-useful.mhtml
leads nowhere.

> --
> ?Oscar Hellström, [hidden email]
> web: personal.oscarh.net
> jid: [hidden email]
>
> _______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions

--

/ Raimo Niskanen, Erlang/OTP, Ericsson AB

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Re: [erlang-questions] : Erlang Book - again

Dmitrii Dimandt


On 9/7/06, Raimo Niskanen <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Thu, Sep 07, 2006 at 12:42:19PM +0200, Oscar Hellström wrote:
> Hi,
:
:text deleted
:
> SIDENOTE:
> Could the Reply-to field be set to the mailing list by the mailing list
> application, this would be very convenient.
>

Well, this is the defaul setting for Mailman, and they
"strongly recommend" it should be so. They also supply a link
        "`Reply-To' Munging Considered Harmful"
         http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
So, give me a good enough reason that beats those arguments.


"Reply-To munging does not benefit the user with a reasonable mailer. People want to munge Reply-To headers to make "reply back to the list" easy. But it already is easy. Reasonable mail programs have two separate "reply" commands: one that replies directly to the author of a message, and another that replies to the author plus all of the list recipients. Even the lowly Berkeley Mail command has had this for about a decade."

Now, I want to reply to the list, not to a hundred people this "reply-all" may contain. I also like pressing "Reply", not "Reply All", because sometimes I simply have no time for realising that I am actually replying the list, not the person. Life should be made easy, not hard :))

"Reply-To munging destroys the "reply-to-author" capability."

Well, since it is a list, there is very little reason for a reply-to-author. If somebody eve needs to reply directly to the author, his/her email can be easily copied from the From: field.

All responses should go directly to the list anyway." This is arrogant. You should allow me to decide exactly how I wish to respond to a message. If I feel a public response is justified, I'll hit the "g" key and tell Elm to do a group-reply. If I believe a private response is more appropriate, I'll use "r" to send one. Please allow me the freedom to decide how to handle a message.

Well, I am arrogant :) But anyway. Since this _is_ a list, a _natural_ choice, imho, is to set reply-to to reply-to-group.

If responses should return to the sender and not the original author, then the sender will insert a Reply-To header.

Well, that's what we are doing :) We are sending messages to the list, not to the original author :))

A user saddled with such a brain-dead mailer can benefit from Reply-To munging. It makes it easier for him or her to send responses directly to the list. This change, however, penalizes the conscientious person that uses a reasonable mailer. This is a poor trade-off. As Internet list administrators, we should encourage people to run reasonable software.

This is a lame excuse anyway, I think :)

Compare and contrast: the work required for me (or any other Elm user)...
When I hit the "r" key in Elm, it sends a response to the author of a message. When you munge the Reply-To header you change this action so that it does something entirely different from what I expect...

Ehm. What's Elm? :) There are literally thousands of mail programs out there and each behaves differently. Oh. And there's web-based mail, too...

Consider the damage when things go awry. If you do not munge the Reply-To header and a list subscriber accidentally sends a response via private email instead of to the list, he or she has to follow up with a message that says, "Ooops! I meant to send that to the list. Could you please forward a copy for me." That's a hassle, and it happens from time to time.

More often, I think, there is a situation, when a private email is sent instead of an email to the list. My opinion is that the program (mailer in my case) should work or made to work in the way that is most expected of it. When I reply to the list, it should reply to the list. If I reply to a person, it should reply to a person. Preferably, with the same function, reply-to. IMHO, of course :)

:)))

Unfortunately their contradicting link
        "Reply-To Munging Considered Useful"
        http://www.metasystema.org/essays/reply-to-useful.mhtml
leads nowhere.

> --
> ?Oscar Hellström, [hidden email]
> web: personal.oscarh.net
> jid: [hidden email]
>
> _______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions

--

/ Raimo Niskanen, Erlang/OTP, Ericsson AB

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Re: [erlang-questions] : Erlang Book - again

Dmitrii Dimandt
In reply to this post by Raimo Niskanen-2

Unfortunately their contradicting link
        "Reply-To Munging Considered Useful"
        http://www.metasystema.org/essays/reply-to-useful.mhtml
leads nowhere.

> --
> ?Oscar Hellström, [hidden email]
> web: personal.oscarh.net
> jid: [hidden email]
>
> _______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions

--

/ Raimo Niskanen, Erlang/OTP, Ericsson AB

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