Erlang killer app?

Previous Topic Next Topic
 
classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
25 messages Options
12
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Erlang killer app?

isaac gouy-2
Please excuse my ignorance of most things Erlang, and
my outsiders perspective.

>an Erlang application server efficient and easy
>to use might become an Erlang killer app
I had the impression that there already was an "Erlang
killer app" - building telcomm systems and apps?

I also got a vague impression that within Ericsson
there's ongoing debate about whether Erlang should be
used on this project or that project...?

As an outsider, I'd like to know that Erlang is still
used on new projects within the domain it was designed
for.


"Eddie" seems to play to Erlangs strengths
wonderfully. That was nearly 2 years ago. But at least
it played to Erlangs strengths.

Is string manipulation/web page templating something
that really plays to Erlangs strengths? Or would it be
more obvious to use Tcl/Perl/Python/... for that (with
something like IDX-spyerl?). I don't know.

I *believe* there's value in improving how Erlang
plays with other technologies, rather than trying to
do everything in Erlang. Yes, Erlang Server Pages let
the Erlang community create dynamic web pages, but
they won't bring outsiders to Erlang. Smalltalk Server
Pages never brought others to Smalltalk :-(

best wishes, Isaac

http://www.mozart-oz.org/ seems to build on the Erlang
heritage.





__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes
http://autos.yahoo.com


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Erlang killer app?

Hakan Millroth
 > As an outsider, I'd like to know that Erlang is still
 > used on new projects within the domain it was designed
 > for.

It is used in several products from Nortel Networks, with thousands of
deployed systems.

Hakan Millroth
Nortel Networks
Santa Clara, CA, USA




Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Erlang killer app?

Alexander Williams
In reply to this post by isaac gouy-2
On Thu, Jul 18, 2002 at 02:52:38PM -0700, isaac gouy wrote:
> Is string manipulation/web page templating something

Personally, I wish Erlang had somewhat stronger support for string
manipulation -- since currently I use Python for my quick-hack bits,
and I'd really love to use Erlang for the bits instead.  (Replicating
the Python "os", "os.path", and "string" modules would be an excellent
first stop, there; and yes, I'm aware that Erlang isn't really
intended to be a stand-alone script system.)

If you count the number of times I use string.split in a typical hack,
I fear the counter will spin wildly.  :)

--
Alexander Williams (thantos)   |    http://www.chancel.org    |
============================================================================
  "Have you no love for imagination?" asked the Lady Vijaya.               |
  "I have no love for anything that does not exist," answered Lord Kurian. |
"The things not found in this world resent me for living in it. They would |
kill me, I think, and savor the deed, were not their fangs and claws and   |
blades as illusory as they."                                               |
                                   --from The Divine Hunt, by Michael Kay  |



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Erland on FreeBSD or Mandrake?

Martin Carlson-2
In reply to this post by isaac gouy-2

I am new to the list.  I am trying to get Erlang to compile on FreeBSD 4.5
and/or Mandrake 8.2.  I am not having much luck on either one.  Can someone
give me suggestions, pointers, binaries or something?

Thanks,
----Martin----



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Erlang killer app?

Eric Merritt-3
In reply to this post by isaac gouy-2
Isaac,

 Just creating erlang server pages wont do it. You
would have to create and easy, efficient, system for
web application construction. Zope is probably pretty
close but its not thier yet,
JSP/Servlets/Struts(coccoon?) is close as well, but
still has a ways to go.

It would almost have to be a two level system.
Something that would do most of the work for quick
scripts (and poor programmers) and not hinder an
experienced programmer (in fact it should help
significantly) get the job done.


In this case, I think erlang would beat the python and
java solutions in speed and flexability (depending on
who coded it and how it is coded).

It would take quite allot of expertise in many areas
to do it right, (that probably exists here on the
list) but it wouldnt be a simple undertaking.

 In one way you are right, ESP (thats kind of a cool
acronym lol) alone would not do it, but a technology
that elegently fills a current need and makes
programmers more productive would have a very good
chance of doing it.

--- isaac gouy <igouy> wrote:

> Please excuse my ignorance of most things Erlang,
> and
> my outsiders perspective.
>
> >an Erlang application server efficient and easy
> >to use might become an Erlang killer app
> I had the impression that there already was an
> "Erlang
> killer app" - building telcomm systems and apps?
>
> I also got a vague impression that within Ericsson
> there's ongoing debate about whether Erlang should
> be
> used on this project or that project...?
>
> As an outsider, I'd like to know that Erlang is
> still
> used on new projects within the domain it was
> designed
> for.
>
>
> "Eddie" seems to play to Erlangs strengths
> wonderfully. That was nearly 2 years ago. But at
> least
> it played to Erlangs strengths.
>
> Is string manipulation/web page templating something
> that really plays to Erlangs strengths? Or would it
> be
> more obvious to use Tcl/Perl/Python/... for that
> (with
> something like IDX-spyerl?). I don't know.
>
> I *believe* there's value in improving how Erlang
> plays with other technologies, rather than trying to
> do everything in Erlang. Yes, Erlang Server Pages
> let
> the Erlang community create dynamic web pages, but
> they won't bring outsiders to Erlang. Smalltalk
> Server
> Pages never brought others to Smalltalk :-(
>
> best wishes, Isaac
>
> http://www.mozart-oz.org/ seems to build on the
> Erlang
> heritage.
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes
> http://autos.yahoo.com


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes
http://autos.yahoo.com


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Erland on FreeBSD or Mandrake?

Eric Merritt-3
In reply to this post by Martin Carlson-2
Martin,

 It might help if you provided the error message.

Thanks,
Eric
--- "Martin L.W. Hall, Ph.D." <martin>
wrote:

>
> I am new to the list.  I am trying to get Erlang to
> compile on FreeBSD 4.5
> and/or Mandrake 8.2.  I am not having much luck on
> either one.  Can someone
> give me suggestions, pointers, binaries or
> something?
>
> Thanks,
> ----Martin----
>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes
http://autos.yahoo.com


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Erland on FreeBSD or Mandrake?

Samuel Elliott
In reply to this post by Martin Carlson-2
On 18/07, Martin L.W. Hall, Ph.D. wrote:

| I am new to the list.  I am trying to get Erlang to compile on FreeBSD 4.5
| and/or Mandrake 8.2.  I am not having much luck on either one.  Can someone
| give me suggestions, pointers, binaries or something?

Erlang is part of the FreeBSD "ports collection". You may try either
"pkg_add -r erlang" or untar the ports collection and run:
cd /usr/ports/lang/erlang && make install

That should do the job.

  Sam


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Erland on FreeBSD or Mandrake?

Jimmy Olgeni-3
In reply to this post by Martin Carlson-2

On Thu, 18 Jul 2002, Martin L.W. Hall, Ph.D. wrote:

> I am new to the list.  I am trying to get Erlang to compile on FreeBSD 4.5
> and/or Mandrake 8.2.  I am not having much luck on either one.  Can someone
> give me suggestions, pointers, binaries or something?

Simple way (freebsd):

# cd /usr/ports/lang/erlang
# make install

And lang/erlang-doc has the PDF docs :)

Be sure to have an up-to-date ports collection because I recently fixed a
file ownership bug (I forgot to chown some files...)

--
jimmy



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Erland on FreeBSD or Mandrake?

Thierry Mallard
In reply to this post by Martin Carlson-2
On Thu, Jul 18, 2002 at 07:08:37PM -0700, Martin L.W. Hall, Ph.D. wrote:
>
> I am new to the list.  I am trying to get Erlang to compile on FreeBSD 4.5
> and/or Mandrake 8.2.  

If you use Mandrake 8.2 somewhere, could you try the RPM i've tried to
build ?

http://www.vawis.net/mdk/erlang-8.1-0mdk.i586.rpm

(The .src.rpm will follow this week-end)

The more feedback it will get, the better  :-)

With kind regards,

--
Thierry Mallard
http://vawis.net


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Erland on FreeBSD or Mandrake?

Javier Gómez Sierras
In reply to this post by Martin Carlson-2
> I am new to the list.  I am trying to get Erlang to compile on FreeBSD 4.5
> and/or Mandrake 8.2.  I am not having much luck on either one.  Can someone
> give me suggestions, pointers, binaries or something?

I compiled Erlang for Mandrake 8.1 and these are some of the
packages you need (apart from make and gcc):

XFree86-devel
libtermcap2-devel
j2re-1.3
j2sdk-1.3

It may be different for Mandrake 8.2. I have not tested it
on MDK 8.2 because I now use Debian ;-)


Javier G?mez Sierras
jgomsi



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Erland on FreeBSD or Mandrake?

Martin Carlson-2
In reply to this post by Jimmy Olgeni-3
Here is the error message that I get, though it seems that different (but
similarly configured machines) give different errors:

# make install
===>  Configuring for erlang-7.3.0
 >> Error: cannot find javac in JAVABINDIR.
 >> Please configure JAVABINDIR, or use the WITHOUT_JAVA option
*** Error code 1

Stop in /usr/ports/lang/erlang.
*** Error code 1

Stop in /usr/ports/lang/erlang.
*** Error code 1

Stop in /usr/ports/lang/erlang.
*** Error code 1

Stop in /usr/ports/lang/erlang.
*** Error code 1

Stop in /usr/ports/lang/erlang.At 12:08 PM 7/19/2002 +0200, Jimmy Olgeni wrote:

>On Thu, 18 Jul 2002, Martin L.W. Hall, Ph.D. wrote:
>
> > I am new to the list.  I am trying to get Erlang to compile on FreeBSD 4.5
> > and/or Mandrake 8.2.  I am not having much luck on either one.  Can someone
> > give me suggestions, pointers, binaries or something?
>
>Simple way (freebsd):
>
># cd /usr/ports/lang/erlang
># make install
>
>And lang/erlang-doc has the PDF docs :)
>
>Be sure to have an up-to-date ports collection because I recently fixed a
>file ownership bug (I forgot to chown some files...)
>
>--
>jimmy



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Erlang killer app?

isaac gouy-2
In reply to this post by Eric Merritt-3
> Just creating erlang server pages wont do it. You
> would have to create and easy, efficient, system for
> web application construction.

I'm trying to get some sense of what the Erlang
community wants to achieve next.

Building yet another CMS might be fun. I'm sure it can
be done in Erlang. But how much does it lever Erlangs
strengths, and what kind of organisations would use it
instead of their current CMS?

I could more easily understand using Erlang to build
highly reliable, secure, transacted, messaging
systems: like www.kenemea.com

Maybe I'm just being unimaginative. Being able to
develop Wings3D in Erlang is fabulous!

I wonder what business areas outside of telcomm share
similar performance requirements - stock exchange, B2B
marketplace, others? Where are Erlangs/OTPs strengths
applicable outside of telcomm?

best wishes, Isaac


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes
http://autos.yahoo.com


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Erlang killer app?

Eric Merritt-3
You are right, the only problem is that the project
has to be fun for the programmers (this is a hobby
after all). Targeting vertical markets like this,
especially those that have limited access by joe
programmer, is probably not going to be allot of fun
to do.

 Even the idea of a messeging system for corporate use
is not so simple as it may seem. We actaully wrote
some requirements for a similar system here awhile
ago. We never got the time to write it but the design
looked like it would work pretty well. In the
corporate senarios you would probably need standard
IM, virtual perminant and dynamic conference rooms,
auto loggin etc. Not to mention the need to support
admins, monitors who could pop into and monitor any
session, etc.  

I almost wouldn't be comfortable writing something
like that, though I do understand why corporations
feel they need it.

I guess my point is that coming up with something that
would be of interest to corporations and
hackers/programmers would be very difficult.

Btw, the url provided does not seem to be available.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes
http://autos.yahoo.com


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Erlang killer app?

isaac gouy-2
> You are right, the only problem is that the project
> has to be fun for the programmers (this is a hobby
> after all).
People seem to have all kinds of ideas about what is
fun ;-)
JBoss?
OpenNMS?

Maybe the issue is really one of domain knowledge
-Erlang experts have domain expertise within Telcomm,
not in other domains where the technology might be
applied?

> Btw, the url provided does not seem to be available.
Oooops typo!
http://www.kenamea.com/

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes
http://autos.yahoo.com


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Erlang killer app?

Ulf Wiger-4
On Fri, 19 Jul 2002, isaac gouy wrote:

>Maybe the issue is really one of domain knowledge -Erlang
>experts have domain expertise within Telcomm, not in other
>domains where the technology might be applied?

I don't think it's quite that simple.

Personally, I spent a few years designing systems for emergency
response, trooper dispatch, etc. Many of the things we worked
with were database and groupware oriented. I picked up Erlang
during that time, and considered it ideal for the flexible and
robust messaging backbones we wanted to build.

I'm convinced that Erlang could be used to design some killer
groupware.

I joined Ericsson because I wanted to work with Erlang, but knew
fairly little about Telecom at the time. My fellow Erlang
programmers at work have all sorts of backgrounds.

I think you'd find a fairly wide variety of domain experience on
this list. It would perhaps be interesting to conduct a poll...?

/Uffe
--
Ulf Wiger, Senior Specialist,
   / / /   Architecture & Design of Carrier-Class Software
  / / /    Strategic Product & System Management
 / / /     Ericsson Telecom AB, ATM Multiservice Networks



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Erlang killer app?

Eric Merritt-3
> I don't think it's quite that simple.
>
> Personally, I spent a few years designing systems
> for emergency
> response, trooper dispatch, etc. Many of the things
> we worked
> with were database and groupware oriented. I picked
> up Erlang
> during that time, and considered it ideal for the
> flexible and
> robust messaging backbones we wanted to build.
>
> I'm convinced that Erlang could be used to design
> some killer
> groupware.

Now groupware, thats an interesting thought. I used to
work with Lotus Notes, about the best general
groupware app anywere, and its not that great.
5,000,000+ lines of code and it tends to be a buggy
mess half the time (though far better then the
alternatives).

A good group where app would probably be a 'Killer
App' and catch the eye of quite a few good size
corporations. Not to mention what it could do for the
open source world in general.

Unfortunatly this is no simple application no matter
how you look at it.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes
http://autos.yahoo.com


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Erlang killer app?

Alex Peake
In reply to this post by Ulf Wiger-4
Well, since you ask for a poll --

I work on eCommerce systems.

These involve geographically distributed warehouses around the US. We set up items (SKUs), receive
Advance Shipment Notifications (ASNs), receive material, put away in the warehouse. We then receive
orders from our web site or SOAP (Web Services) or ftp, and dispatch the orders to the appropriate
warehouse. Orders in the warehouse are then picked, packed and shipped (UPS, FedEx and most others).
We invoice.

Our system is unusual in that we do this for about 100 clients, and every client has different
rules. The web site is a common set of code, but looks like a different web site for each client.

Our current technology is RDBMS in each warehouse and at the web site (SQL Server). Microsoft IIS,
ASP and VB COM+ on the web site for application programming. MS Message Queues to distribute to the
warehouses.

We have a monster web-based reporting system for our clients - built around Actuate.

The warehouse application is old and the whole system about to be re-written - hence my interest in
Erlang.

Alex


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-erlang-questions
[mailto:owner-erlang-questions]On Behalf Of Ulf Wiger
Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 3:21 PM
To: erlang-questions
Subject: Re: Erlang killer app?


On Fri, 19 Jul 2002, isaac gouy wrote:

>Maybe the issue is really one of domain knowledge -Erlang
>experts have domain expertise within Telcomm, not in other
>domains where the technology might be applied?

I don't think it's quite that simple.

Personally, I spent a few years designing systems for emergency
response, trooper dispatch, etc. Many of the things we worked
with were database and groupware oriented. I picked up Erlang
during that time, and considered it ideal for the flexible and
robust messaging backbones we wanted to build.

I'm convinced that Erlang could be used to design some killer
groupware.

I joined Ericsson because I wanted to work with Erlang, but knew
fairly little about Telecom at the time. My fellow Erlang
programmers at work have all sorts of backgrounds.

I think you'd find a fairly wide variety of domain experience on
this list. It would perhaps be interesting to conduct a poll...?

/Uffe
--
Ulf Wiger, Senior Specialist,
   / / /   Architecture & Design of Carrier-Class Software
  / / /    Strategic Product & System Management
 / / /     Ericsson Telecom AB, ATM Multiservice Networks





Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Erlang killer app?

Alex Peake
In reply to this post by Eric Merritt-3
Tools to build distributed commerce apps would be good. Erlang offers huge productivity gains over
Java, VB, C# etc.

Alex


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-erlang-questions
[mailto:owner-erlang-questions]On Behalf Of Eric Merritt
Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 3:54 PM
To: Ulf Wiger; erlang-questions
Subject: Re: Erlang killer app?


> I don't think it's quite that simple.
>
> Personally, I spent a few years designing systems
> for emergency
> response, trooper dispatch, etc. Many of the things
> we worked
> with were database and groupware oriented. I picked
> up Erlang
> during that time, and considered it ideal for the
> flexible and
> robust messaging backbones we wanted to build.
>
> I'm convinced that Erlang could be used to design
> some killer
> groupware.

Now groupware, thats an interesting thought. I used to
work with Lotus Notes, about the best general
groupware app anywere, and its not that great.
5,000,000+ lines of code and it tends to be a buggy
mess half the time (though far better then the
alternatives).

A good group where app would probably be a 'Killer
App' and catch the eye of quite a few good size
corporations. Not to mention what it could do for the
open source world in general.

Unfortunatly this is no simple application no matter
how you look at it.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes
http://autos.yahoo.com




Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Erlang killer app?

Vance Shipley-2
In reply to this post by Ulf Wiger-4

I've always felt in the minority around here as I am focused
on telecom.  The vast majority of posts here are to do with
language issues and not with OTP.  The behaviour we use the
most is gen_fsm.  I'm sure the most widely used is gen_server.

        -Vance

On Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 12:21:18AM +0200, Ulf Wiger wrote:
>
> I think you'd find a fairly wide variety of domain experience on
> this list. It would perhaps be interesting to conduct a poll...?
>
> /Uffe


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Erlang killer app?

Eric Merritt-3
In reply to this post by Alex Peake
Depending on the flexablility you need this can be
either pretty simple or damn hard. I do agree with
you, however, that using erlang would make it allot
easier.

I guess in this situation you would want to come up
with a generalized pluggable framework and build from
there. Add extension point for custom logic at key
points, probably some type of templating system for
the web aspects (lol going back to the original thread
lol). I am not really sure how you would do this as an
open source project but it would be an interesting
project to do.

<off-topic>
On a side note I decided to use asn for some comm work
an erlang app I am working on. Between the natural
ease of erlang, and the spec writing ease of asn it
was almost simple. I havnt had this much fun coding a
project in a long time.
</off-topic>

Ok back, Are you suggesting something like this be
done in the community? If so do you have any ideas on
how to go about it? generating specs etc.



--- Alex Peake <apeake> wrote:

> Well, since you ask for a poll --
>
> I work on eCommerce systems.
>
> These involve geographically distributed warehouses
> around the US. We set up items (SKUs), receive
> Advance Shipment Notifications (ASNs), receive
> material, put away in the warehouse. We then receive
> orders from our web site or SOAP (Web Services) or
> ftp, and dispatch the orders to the appropriate
> warehouse. Orders in the warehouse are then picked,
> packed and shipped (UPS, FedEx and most others).
> We invoice.
>
> Our system is unusual in that we do this for about
> 100 clients, and every client has different
> rules. The web site is a common set of code, but
> looks like a different web site for each client.
>
> Our current technology is RDBMS in each warehouse
> and at the web site (SQL Server). Microsoft IIS,
> ASP and VB COM+ on the web site for application
> programming. MS Message Queues to distribute to the
> warehouses.
>
> We have a monster web-based reporting system for our
> clients - built around Actuate.
>
> The warehouse application is old and the whole
> system about to be re-written - hence my interest in
> Erlang.
>
> Alex
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-erlang-questions
> [mailto:owner-erlang-questions]On Behalf
> Of Ulf Wiger
> Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 3:21 PM
> To: erlang-questions
> Subject: Re: Erlang killer app?
>
>
> On Fri, 19 Jul 2002, isaac gouy wrote:
>
> >Maybe the issue is really one of domain knowledge
> -Erlang
> >experts have domain expertise within Telcomm, not
> in other
> >domains where the technology might be applied?
>
> I don't think it's quite that simple.
>
> Personally, I spent a few years designing systems
> for emergency
> response, trooper dispatch, etc. Many of the things
> we worked
> with were database and groupware oriented. I picked
> up Erlang
> during that time, and considered it ideal for the
> flexible and
> robust messaging backbones we wanted to build.
>
> I'm convinced that Erlang could be used to design
> some killer
> groupware.
>
> I joined Ericsson because I wanted to work with
> Erlang, but knew
> fairly little about Telecom at the time. My fellow
> Erlang
> programmers at work have all sorts of backgrounds.
>
> I think you'd find a fairly wide variety of domain
> experience on
> this list. It would perhaps be interesting to
> conduct a poll...?
>
> /Uffe
> --
> Ulf Wiger, Senior Specialist,
>    / / /   Architecture & Design of Carrier-Class
> Software
>   / / /    Strategic Product & System Management
>  / / /     Ericsson Telecom AB, ATM Multiservice
> Networks
>
>
>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes
http://autos.yahoo.com


12