How RPC works in erlang ?

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How RPC works in erlang ?

ARUN P
Hi all,

I have two distributed applications running on two different nodes. And
from one node I tried to call the function on the remote node by doing
RPC, and its been observed that all the debug prints given in the
application running on the remote node is getting printed on the host
node's console.

Can somebody please tell me in detail why this is happening and how the
RPC in erlang works. ?

Thanks in advance.
Arun P.
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Re: How RPC works in erlang ?

bengt
Greetings,

Yes, that is a feature. All prints go back to the host node.


bengt

On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 3:10 PM, Arun <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi all,

I have two distributed applications running on two different nodes. And from one node I tried to call the function on the remote node by doing RPC, and its been observed that all the debug prints given in the application running on the remote node is getting printed on the host node's console.

Can somebody please tell me in detail why this is happening and how the RPC in erlang works. ?

Thanks in advance.
Arun P.
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Re: How RPC works in erlang ?

Brujo Benavides-3
In reply to this post by ARUN P
Hi Arun,

That’s intended. It happens because of how Erlang redirects all IO through the process group_leader.
This is the best explanatory link I could find googling quickly.
Hope it helps.

On Oct 3, 2017, at 10:10, Arun <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi all,

I have two distributed applications running on two different nodes. And from one node I tried to call the function on the remote node by doing RPC, and its been observed that all the debug prints given in the application running on the remote node is getting printed on the host node's console.

Can somebody please tell me in detail why this is happening and how the RPC in erlang works. ?

Thanks in advance.
Arun P.
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Re: How RPC works in erlang ?

Alexandre Karpov
Thank Brujo for the answer; and thanks, Arun, for the question -  I was thinking about asking the same; though I've already discovered the concepts of group_leader and io redirection, I needed just the S/O answer from above to settle the matter.
Cheers!

On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 9:20 AM, Brujo Benavides <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Arun,

That’s intended. It happens because of how Erlang redirects all IO through the process group_leader.
This is the best explanatory link I could find googling quickly.
Hope it helps.

On Oct 3, 2017, at 10:10, Arun <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi all,

I have two distributed applications running on two different nodes. And from one node I tried to call the function on the remote node by doing RPC, and its been observed that all the debug prints given in the application running on the remote node is getting printed on the host node's console.

Can somebody please tell me in detail why this is happening and how the RPC in erlang works. ?

Thanks in advance.
Arun P.
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Re: How RPC works in erlang ?

ARUN P
In reply to this post by Brujo Benavides-3

Hi Brujo,

Thanks for the information, but i have one more doubt; is this behavior only for io:format function calls or the execution of the entire function also will be happening in the host node.

Regards,
Arun P.

On Tuesday 03 October 2017 06:50 PM, Brujo Benavides wrote:
Hi Arun,

That’s intended. It happens because of how Erlang redirects all IO through the process group_leader.
This is the best explanatory link I could find googling quickly.
Hope it helps.
On Oct 3, 2017, at 10:10, Arun <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi all, I have two distributed applications running on two different nodes. And from one node I tried to call the function on the remote node by doing RPC, and its been observed that all the debug prints given in the application running on the remote node is getting printed on the host node's console. Can somebody please tell me in detail why this is happening and how the RPC in erlang works. ? Thanks in advance. Arun P. _______________________________________________ erlang-questions mailing list [hidden email] http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions

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Re: How RPC works in erlang ?

Brujo Benavides-3
Only for io, AFAIK.
On Thu, 5 Oct 2017 at 01:51 Arun <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Brujo,

Thanks for the information, but i have one more doubt; is this behavior only for io:format function calls or the execution of the entire function also will be happening in the host node.

Regards,
Arun P.


On Tuesday 03 October 2017 06:50 PM, Brujo Benavides wrote:
Hi Arun,

That’s intended. It happens because of how Erlang redirects all IO through the process group_leader.
This is the best explanatory link I could find googling quickly.
Hope it helps.
On Oct 3, 2017, at 10:10, Arun <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi all, I have two distributed applications running on two different nodes. And from one node I tried to call the function on the remote node by doing RPC, and its been observed that all the debug prints given in the application running on the remote node is getting printed on the host node's console. Can somebody please tell me in detail why this is happening and how the RPC in erlang works. ? Thanks in advance. Arun P. _______________________________________________ erlang-questions mailing list [hidden email] http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
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Why RPC in Erlang? [was: How RPC works in erlang?]

Miles Fidelman

I guess an obvious question is why does Erlang have an RPC mechanism at all?  It's so at odds with the basic architecture of message-passing concurrency.

Miles Fidelman


On 10/5/17 3:02 AM, Brujo Benavides wrote:
Only for io, AFAIK.
On Thu, 5 Oct 2017 at 01:51 Arun <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Brujo,

Thanks for the information, but i have one more doubt; is this behavior only for io:format function calls or the execution of the entire function also will be happening in the host node.

Regards,
Arun P.


On Tuesday 03 October 2017 06:50 PM, Brujo Benavides wrote:
Hi Arun,

That’s intended. It happens because of how Erlang redirects all IO through the process group_leader.
This is the best explanatory link I could find googling quickly.
Hope it helps.
On Oct 3, 2017, at 10:10, Arun <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi all, I have two distributed applications running on two different nodes. And from one node I tried to call the function on the remote node by doing RPC, and its been observed that all the debug prints given in the application running on the remote node is getting printed on the host node's console. Can somebody please tell me in detail why this is happening and how the RPC in erlang works. ? Thanks in advance. Arun P. _______________________________________________ erlang-questions mailing list [hidden email] http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
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Re: Why RPC in Erlang? [was: How RPC works in erlang?]

Brujo Benavides-3
Hi Miles,

I would go with: because someone needed it at some point. And now if you need it, too… you don’t have to reinvent it now.
And to be super-precise (and a bit pedantic, I know): RPC is not in Erlang (i.e. in the VM), it comes (and is implemented using) OTP. In other words: it’s a tool built with the language, it’s not a part of the language like the basic architecture of message-passing concurrency.

Cheers!

On Oct 5, 2017, at 14:50, Miles Fidelman <[hidden email]> wrote:

I guess an obvious question is why does Erlang have an RPC mechanism at all?  It's so at odds with the basic architecture of message-passing concurrency.

Miles Fidelman


On 10/5/17 3:02 AM, Brujo Benavides wrote:
Only for io, AFAIK.
On Thu, 5 Oct 2017 at 01:51 Arun <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Brujo,

Thanks for the information, but i have one more doubt; is this behavior only for io:format function calls or the execution of the entire function also will be happening in the host node.

Regards,
Arun P.


On Tuesday 03 October 2017 06:50 PM, Brujo Benavides wrote:
Hi Arun,

That’s intended. It happens because of how Erlang redirects all IO through the process group_leader.
This is the best explanatory link I could find googling quickly.
Hope it helps.
On Oct 3, 2017, at 10:10, Arun <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi all, I have two distributed applications running on two different nodes. And from one node I tried to call the function on the remote node by doing RPC, and its been observed that all the debug prints given in the application running on the remote node is getting printed on the host node's console. Can somebody please tell me in detail why this is happening and how the RPC in erlang works. ? Thanks in advance. Arun P. _______________________________________________ erlang-questions mailing list [hidden email] http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
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In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra
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Re: Why RPC in Erlang? [was: How RPC works in erlang?]

Vans S
I agree here. I think RPC and gen_server calls which are the same thing really should not have been included/baked in. Instead there should of been a separate OTP behavior called async/wait or something.  This behavior can turn any async message into a sync procedure. 

Instead of doing  gen_server:call(name, {msg}), we do  {reply, AsyncAwait} = erlang:send(Pid, {self(), msg}, {reply, '_'}, 5000), what this means, send this message to the pid, and wait until a {reply, '_'} message comes, after 5000 ms timeout and error.   This way is much more generic, and simple.


On Thursday, October 5, 2017 1:55 PM, Brujo Benavides <[hidden email]> wrote:


Hi Miles,

I would go with: because someone needed it at some point. And now if you need it, too… you don’t have to reinvent it now.
And to be super-precise (and a bit pedantic, I know): RPC is not in Erlang (i.e. in the VM), it comes (and is implemented using) OTP. In other words: it’s a tool built with the language, it’s not a part of the language like the basic architecture of message-passing concurrency.

Cheers!

On Oct 5, 2017, at 14:50, Miles Fidelman <[hidden email]> wrote:

I guess an obvious question is why does Erlang have an RPC mechanism at all?  It's so at odds with the basic architecture of message-passing concurrency.
Miles Fidelman

On 10/5/17 3:02 AM, Brujo Benavides wrote:
Only for io, AFAIK.
On Thu, 5 Oct 2017 at 01:51 Arun <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Brujo,
Thanks for the information, but i have one more doubt; is this behavior only for io:format function calls or the execution of the entire function also will be happening in the host node.
Regards,
Arun P.


On Tuesday 03 October 2017 06:50 PM, Brujo Benavides wrote:
Hi Arun,

That’s intended. It happens because of how Erlang redirects all IO through the process group_leader.
This is the best explanatory link I could find googling quickly.
Hope it helps.
On Oct 3, 2017, at 10:10, Arun <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi all, I have two distributed applications running on two different nodes. And from one node I tried to call the function on the remote node by doing RPC, and its been observed that all the debug prints given in the application running on the remote node is getting printed on the host node's console. Can somebody please tell me in detail why this is happening and how the RPC in erlang works. ? Thanks in advance. Arun P. _______________________________________________ erlang-questions mailing list [hidden email] http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
--
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In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra
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Re: Why RPC in Erlang? [was: How RPC works in erlang?]

zxq9-2
In reply to this post by Miles Fidelman
On 2017年10月05日 木曜日 10:50:41 Miles Fidelman wrote:
> I guess an obvious question is why does Erlang have an RPC mechanism at
> all?  It's so at odds with the basic architecture of message-passing
> concurrency.

To be more precise, "Why is there an RPC module in the standard library?"

RPC is not part of the language or runtime, of course, it is just a module
written on top of the bits that already exist in Erlang. Any message that
is sent might initiate an RPC -- or might not. The term "RPC" doesn't even
make much sense to use in the context of Erlang, and one might notice that
this term is actually never used by long-time Erlangers.

I don't think I've ever seen any code that uses the RPC module, either.
Maybe at some point someone thought they needed it, or there may have been
pressure to include that to comply with someone's expectations -- but I've
never found it useful or seen anyone other than beginning Erlangers even
read the docs or ask questions about it (and they stop once they find out
how gen_server:call/2 works over disterl).

"Why is there BERT?", on the other hand, is a question with a ready answer.

-Craig
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Re: Why RPC in Erlang? [was: How RPC works in erlang?]

Heinz Nikolaus Gies-2
RPC is used for tests (when you want to control another node) and CLI wrappers, (when you want to execute commands on a remote node from a script). In both cases it makes sense and isn’t at odds with the erlang principles.

> On 6. Oct 2017, at 04:03, zxq9 <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 2017年10月05日 木曜日 10:50:41 Miles Fidelman wrote:
>> I guess an obvious question is why does Erlang have an RPC mechanism at
>> all?  It's so at odds with the basic architecture of message-passing
>> concurrency.
>
> To be more precise, "Why is there an RPC module in the standard library?"
>
> RPC is not part of the language or runtime, of course, it is just a module
> written on top of the bits that already exist in Erlang. Any message that
> is sent might initiate an RPC -- or might not. The term "RPC" doesn't even
> make much sense to use in the context of Erlang, and one might notice that
> this term is actually never used by long-time Erlangers.
>
> I don't think I've ever seen any code that uses the RPC module, either.
> Maybe at some point someone thought they needed it, or there may have been
> pressure to include that to comply with someone's expectations -- but I've
> never found it useful or seen anyone other than beginning Erlangers even
> read the docs or ask questions about it (and they stop once they find out
> how gen_server:call/2 works over disterl).
>
> "Why is there BERT?", on the other hand, is a question with a ready answer.
>
> -Craig
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> erlang-questions mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions

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Re: Why RPC in Erlang? [was: How RPC works in erlang?]

zxq9-2
On 2017年10月06日 金曜日 04:18:22 Heinz N. Gies wrote:
> RPC is used for tests (when you want to control another node) and
> CLI wrappers, (when you want to execute commands on a remote node
> from a script). In both cases it makes sense and isn’t at odds with
> the erlang principles.

I didn't say it was at odds with Erlang principles. I said the rpc
module is essentially useless.

Thinking that the rpc module is specially useful for tests, CLI
wrappers, or when you want to execute commands on a remote node (from
a script or otherwise) is a bit of an odd conclusion to draw, given
the way that the even-arity spawn_* functions work.

If you mean "the IO redirect thing" then sure, the group leader is
switched if you pass the call through rex so calls to an IO function
on the remote node will turn up on the local shell.

But that prompts the question:
Why aren't you returning a value in the first place?

Asking for a remote note to cause a side effect on the local node
violates the concept of RPC, actually. Which leads me to think that
this module is inappropriately named.

When people want to offload an expensive procedure (that is, actually
remotely call a procedure) they either send it over some protocol
unrelated to disterl or use spawn_monitor/2,4 directly -- they don't
tend pass it through rex. When people want a special IO side effect so
that remote calls to IO functions magically redirect themselves to the
calling node they use the rpc module -- which is not at all what the
term RPC means. The semantics surrounding this trips up quite a few
beginners I've noticed (noticed a lot more this month as a new school
session has really gotten in gear).

-Craig
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Re: Why RPC in Erlang? [was: How RPC works in erlang?]

Roger Lipscombe-2
On 6 October 2017 at 03:37, zxq9 <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Thinking that the rpc module is specially useful for tests, CLI
> wrappers, or when you want to execute commands on a remote node (from
> a script or otherwise) is a bit of an odd conclusion to draw, given
> the way that the even-arity spawn_* functions work.

On occasion, we've needed to (e.g.) tweak application settings in a
remote node, at runtime, during system tests, synchronously. Sure, I
could do that with spawn_*, but that's a lot of plumbing I'd need to
write. Hey, look: someone already did; it's in the rpc module.

We *also* use spawn_*; we've even got some code that pushes a local
module into the remote node, and spawns a process running *that*, but
sometimes: you just want what the rpc module offers.

I also note that erl_call uses the "rex" server...
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Re: Why RPC in Erlang? [was: How RPC works in erlang?]

zxq9-2
On 2017年10月06日 金曜日 10:43:48 Roger Lipscombe wrote:

> On 6 October 2017 at 03:37, zxq9 <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Thinking that the rpc module is specially useful for tests, CLI
> > wrappers, or when you want to execute commands on a remote node (from
> > a script or otherwise) is a bit of an odd conclusion to draw, given
> > the way that the even-arity spawn_* functions work.
>
> On occasion, we've needed to (e.g.) tweak application settings in a
> remote node, at runtime, during system tests, synchronously. Sure, I
> could do that with spawn_*, but that's a lot of plumbing I'd need to
> write. Hey, look: someone already did; it's in the rpc module.

Sure. I'm not disagreeing with that.

I'm disagreeing with the false notion that this is what "remote
procedure call" actually means.

-Craig
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Re: Why RPC in Erlang? [was: How RPC works in erlang?]

Vans S
> I'm disagreeing with the false notion that this is what "remote
> procedure call" actually means.

RPC practically (not theoretically) means to send a message and get a reply back to the sender for that particular message.  It is different from the request/response model because it allows non-blocking multiplexing on 1 data channel. 

Usually this is implemented by passing a unique ID in the message mapping to a callback on the sender, in erlangs case this is the pid of the sender, but it can be a service dedicated to RPC.


On Friday, October 6, 2017 10:48 AM, zxq9 <[hidden email]> wrote:


On 2017年10月06日 金曜日 10:43:48 Roger Lipscombe wrote:

> On 6 October 2017 at 03:37, zxq9 <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Thinking that the rpc module is specially useful for tests, CLI
> > wrappers, or when you want to execute commands on a remote node (from
> > a script or otherwise) is a bit of an odd conclusion to draw, given
> > the way that the even-arity spawn_* functions work.
>
> On occasion, we've needed to (e.g.) tweak application settings in a
> remote node, at runtime, during system tests, synchronously. Sure, I
> could do that with spawn_*, but that's a lot of plumbing I'd need to
> write. Hey, look: someone already did; it's in the rpc module.

Sure. I'm not disagreeing with that.

I'm disagreeing with the false notion that this is what "remote
procedure call" actually means.

-Craig

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Re: Why RPC in Erlang? [was: How RPC works in erlang?]

Greg
In reply to this post by zxq9-2
So when to use rpc:call and when to send a message by RemotePID ! {call, procedure}? Is there any general guidelines?

There was these long standing debate over this http://armstrongonsoftware.blogspot.in/2008/05/road-we-didnt-go-down.html;  



On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 8:17 PM, zxq9 <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 2017年10月06日 金曜日 10:43:48 Roger Lipscombe wrote:
> On 6 October 2017 at 03:37, zxq9 <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Thinking that the rpc module is specially useful for tests, CLI
> > wrappers, or when you want to execute commands on a remote node (from
> > a script or otherwise) is a bit of an odd conclusion to draw, given
> > the way that the even-arity spawn_* functions work.
>
> On occasion, we've needed to (e.g.) tweak application settings in a
> remote node, at runtime, during system tests, synchronously. Sure, I
> could do that with spawn_*, but that's a lot of plumbing I'd need to
> write. Hey, look: someone already did; it's in the rpc module.

Sure. I'm not disagreeing with that.

I'm disagreeing with the false notion that this is what "remote
procedure call" actually means.

-Craig
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Re: Why RPC in Erlang? [was: How RPC works in erlang?]

Vans S
> So when to use rpc:call and when to send a message by RemotePID ! {call, procedure}? Is there any general guidelines?

No guidelines pretty much if you need code that requires responses from different endpoints, use RPC/custom_async_await, if you need to pass a message do that.

{:ok, ICareReply} = rpc:call(bid_node, bidder, sendBidToPolonix, [155000, 100])
bid_entered_in_books

DontCareReply = MarketScannerPid ! scan_market_price_and_enter_into_db




On Friday, October 6, 2017 12:43 PM, Greg <[hidden email]> wrote:


So when to use rpc:call and when to send a message by RemotePID ! {call, procedure}? Is there any general guidelines?

There was these long standing debate over this http://armstrongonsoftware.blogspot.in/2008/05/road-we-didnt-go-down.html;  



On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 8:17 PM, zxq9 <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 2017年10月06日 金曜日 10:43:48 Roger Lipscombe wrote:
> On 6 October 2017 at 03:37, zxq9 <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Thinking that the rpc module is specially useful for tests, CLI
> > wrappers, or when you want to execute commands on a remote node (from
> > a script or otherwise) is a bit of an odd conclusion to draw, given
> > the way that the even-arity spawn_* functions work.
>
> On occasion, we've needed to (e.g.) tweak application settings in a
> remote node, at runtime, during system tests, synchronously. Sure, I
> could do that with spawn_*, but that's a lot of plumbing I'd need to
> write. Hey, look: someone already did; it's in the rpc module.

Sure. I'm not disagreeing with that.

I'm disagreeing with the false notion that this is what "remote
procedure call" actually means.

-Craig
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