Time for OTP to be Renamed?

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Time for OTP to be Renamed?

kraythe .
I am a newbie to Erlang so pardon if the question comes off as impertinent.
However, as I read more into OTP and see the power it has, I am more and
more irked by its name. The Open Telephony Platform seems to be a little
limited and I wonder if it would put off people trying to adopt Erlang for
other use cases.

I am wondering wouldn't it be better to call it the Open Technology
Platform? The same initials can be used, but the understanding would be
that the platform would be a general purpose library (which it is) useful
for many endeavors, not just writing a phone switch.

Sure it might seem trivial but any marketing guy will tell you, naming is
sometimes everything. So am I nuts here?


*Robert Simmons Jr. MSc.*
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Time for OTP to be Renamed?

Gustav Simonsson-3
Let's make it more appealing to startups and the agile folks: Organic
Technology Paradigm shift.


On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 11:04 PM, kraythe . <kraythe> wrote:

> I am a newbie to Erlang so pardon if the question comes off as
> impertinent. However, as I read more into OTP and see the power it has, I
> am more and more irked by its name. The Open Telephony Platform seems to be
> a little limited and I wonder if it would put off people trying to adopt
> Erlang for other use cases.
>
> I am wondering wouldn't it be better to call it the Open Technology
> Platform? The same initials can be used, but the understanding would be
> that the platform would be a general purpose library (which it is) useful
> for many endeavors, not just writing a phone switch.
>
> Sure it might seem trivial but any marketing guy will tell you, naming is
> sometimes everything. So am I nuts here?
>
>
> *Robert Simmons Jr. MSc.*
>
> _______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> erlang-questions
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
>
>
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Time for OTP to be Renamed?

Sean Cribbs-3
The inimitable Garrett Smith has also provided us a (politically-incorrect)
alternative: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRbY3TMUcgQ

You may know Garrett from his previous works, "MongoDB is Web-Scale" and
"Node.js is Bad-ass Rockstar Tech".

Take everything in the video with a grain of salt and sense of humor. :D


On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 4:09 PM, Gustav Simonsson <
gustav.simonsson> wrote:

> Let's make it more appealing to startups and the agile folks: Organic
> Technology Paradigm shift.
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 11:04 PM, kraythe . <kraythe> wrote:
>
>> I am a newbie to Erlang so pardon if the question comes off as
>> impertinent. However, as I read more into OTP and see the power it has, I
>> am more and more irked by its name. The Open Telephony Platform seems to be
>> a little limited and I wonder if it would put off people trying to adopt
>> Erlang for other use cases.
>>
>> I am wondering wouldn't it be better to call it the Open Technology
>> Platform? The same initials can be used, but the understanding would be
>> that the platform would be a general purpose library (which it is) useful
>> for many endeavors, not just writing a phone switch.
>>
>> Sure it might seem trivial but any marketing guy will tell you, naming is
>> sometimes everything. So am I nuts here?
>>
>>
>> *Robert Simmons Jr. MSc.*
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> erlang-questions mailing list
>> erlang-questions
>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> erlang-questions
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
>
>


--
Sean Cribbs <sean>
Software Engineer
Basho Technologies, Inc.
http://basho.com/
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Time for OTP to be Renamed?

Valentin Micic-3
In reply to this post by Gustav Simonsson-3
Are you sure that  'T' in OTP stands for "Telephony"?
I've been under an impression it stood for "Telecommunications" or "Telecoms".
And I agree -- it is trivial, and do not agree that naming is everything... otherwise, no-one sane will name a computer company after a fruit.

V/

>
> On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 11:04 PM, kraythe . <kraythe> wrote:
> I am a newbie to Erlang so pardon if the question comes off as impertinent. However, as I read more into OTP and see the power it has, I am more and more irked by its name. The Open Telephony Platform seems to be a little limited and I wonder if it would put off people trying to adopt Erlang for other use cases.
>
> I am wondering wouldn't it be better to call it the Open Technology Platform? The same initials can be used, but the understanding would be that the platform would be a general purpose library (which it is) useful for many endeavors, not just writing a phone switch.
>
> Sure it might seem trivial but any marketing guy will tell you, naming is sometimes everything. So am I nuts here?
>
> Robert Simmons Jr. MSc.
>
> _______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> erlang-questions
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
>

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Time for OTP to be Renamed?

Christopher Meiklejohn-2
In reply to this post by Sean Cribbs-3
May I propose an alternative? "Open Telecom Platform: An Unexpected Journey."

- Chris

On Feb 12, 2014, at 5:15 PM, Sean Cribbs <sean> wrote:

> The inimitable Garrett Smith has also provided us a (politically-incorrect) alternative: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRbY3TMUcgQ
>
> You may know Garrett from his previous works, "MongoDB is Web-Scale" and "Node.js is Bad-ass Rockstar Tech".
>
> Take everything in the video with a grain of salt and sense of humor. :D
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 4:09 PM, Gustav Simonsson <gustav.simonsson> wrote:
> Let's make it more appealing to startups and the agile folks: Organic Technology Paradigm shift.
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 11:04 PM, kraythe . <kraythe> wrote:
> I am a newbie to Erlang so pardon if the question comes off as impertinent. However, as I read more into OTP and see the power it has, I am more and more irked by its name. The Open Telephony Platform seems to be a little limited and I wonder if it would put off people trying to adopt Erlang for other use cases.
>
> I am wondering wouldn't it be better to call it the Open Technology Platform? The same initials can be used, but the understanding would be that the platform would be a general purpose library (which it is) useful for many endeavors, not just writing a phone switch.
>
> Sure it might seem trivial but any marketing guy will tell you, naming is sometimes everything. So am I nuts here?
>
> Robert Simmons Jr. MSc.
>
> _______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> erlang-questions
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> erlang-questions
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
>
>
>
>
> --
> Sean Cribbs <sean>
> Software Engineer
> Basho Technologies, Inc.
> http://basho.com/
> _______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> erlang-questions
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions

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Time for OTP to be Renamed?

Tristan Sloughter-2
How about: RARTP, Reactive Async Real Time Platform



--
Tristan Sloughter
tristan.sloughter





On Wed, Feb 12, 2014, at 02:19 PM, Christopher Meiklejohn wrote:

  May I propose an alternative? "Open Telecom Platform: An Unexpected
  Journey."



- Chris


On Feb 12, 2014, at 5:15 PM, Sean Cribbs <[1]sean> wrote:

The inimitable Garrett Smith has also provided us a
(politically-incorrect)
alternative: [2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRbY3TMUcgQ

You may know Garrett from his previous works, "MongoDB is Web-Scale"
and "Node.js is Bad-ass Rockstar Tech".

Take everything in the video with a grain of salt and sense of humor.
:D



On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 4:09 PM, Gustav Simonsson
<[3]gustav.simonsson> wrote:

Let's make it more appealing to startups and the agile folks: Organic
Technology Paradigm shift.



On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 11:04 PM, kraythe . <[4]kraythe>
wrote:

I am a newbie to Erlang so pardon if the question comes off as
impertinent. However, as I read more into OTP and see the power it has,
I am more and more irked by its name. The Open Telephony Platform seems
to be a little limited and I wonder if it would put off people trying
to adopt Erlang for other use cases.

I am wondering wouldn't it be better to call it the Open Technology
Platform? The same initials can be used, but the understanding would be
that the platform would be a general purpose library (which it is)
useful for many endeavors, not just writing a phone switch.

Sure it might seem trivial but any marketing guy will tell you, naming
is sometimes everything. So am I nuts here?

Robert Simmons Jr. MSc.

_______________________________________________

erlang-questions mailing list

[5]erlang-questions

[6]http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions






_______________________________________________

erlang-questions mailing list

[7]erlang-questions

[8]http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions






--
Sean Cribbs <[9]sean>
Software Engineer
Basho Technologies, Inc.
[10]http://basho.com/

_______________________________________________

erlang-questions mailing list

[11]erlang-questions

http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions


_______________________________________________

erlang-questions mailing list

[12]erlang-questions

[13]http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions

References

1. mailto:sean
2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRbY3TMUcgQ
3. mailto:gustav.simonsson
4. mailto:kraythe
5. mailto:erlang-questions
6. http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
7. mailto:erlang-questions
8. http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
9. mailto:sean
  10. http://basho.com/
  11. mailto:erlang-questions
  12. mailto:erlang-questions
  13. http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
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Time for OTP to be Renamed?

Andrew Stone
In reply to this post by Christopher Meiklejohn-2
That sounds like a Dank Fire Idea!


On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 5:19 PM, Christopher Meiklejohn <
christopher.meiklejohn> wrote:

> May I propose an alternative? "Open Telecom Platform: An Unexpected
> Journey."
>
> - Chris
>
> On Feb 12, 2014, at 5:15 PM, Sean Cribbs <sean> wrote:
>
> The inimitable Garrett Smith has also provided us a
> (politically-incorrect) alternative:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRbY3TMUcgQ
>
> You may know Garrett from his previous works, "MongoDB is Web-Scale" and
> "Node.js is Bad-ass Rockstar Tech".
>
> Take everything in the video with a grain of salt and sense of humor. :D
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 4:09 PM, Gustav Simonsson <
> gustav.simonsson> wrote:
>
>> Let's make it more appealing to startups and the agile folks: Organic
>> Technology Paradigm shift.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 11:04 PM, kraythe . <kraythe> wrote:
>>
>>> I am a newbie to Erlang so pardon if the question comes off as
>>> impertinent. However, as I read more into OTP and see the power it has, I
>>> am more and more irked by its name. The Open Telephony Platform seems to be
>>> a little limited and I wonder if it would put off people trying to adopt
>>> Erlang for other use cases.
>>>
>>> I am wondering wouldn't it be better to call it the Open Technology
>>> Platform? The same initials can be used, but the understanding would be
>>> that the platform would be a general purpose library (which it is) useful
>>> for many endeavors, not just writing a phone switch.
>>>
>>> Sure it might seem trivial but any marketing guy will tell you, naming
>>> is sometimes everything. So am I nuts here?
>>>
>>>
>>> *Robert Simmons Jr. MSc.*
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> erlang-questions mailing list
>>> erlang-questions
>>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> erlang-questions mailing list
>> erlang-questions
>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Sean Cribbs <sean>
> Software Engineer
> Basho Technologies, Inc.
> http://basho.com/
>  _______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> erlang-questions
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> erlang-questions
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
>
>
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Time for OTP to be Renamed?

Loïc Hoguin-2
In reply to this post by kraythe .
Historically OTP meant Open Telecom Platform.

Today OTP means OTP. People don't use the name OTP as initials of
anything. When they say OTP, they refer to a framework for building
highly available fault tolerant distributed systems.

The same situation exists with many other names. Few can tell you what
SMTP, IMAP, HTTP, REST, SOAP, HTML, XML, JPEG, PNG and others stand for
without looking it up and not making a mistake or three. And it doesn't
matter, the abbreviated name is the one that is used by people, and it's
the one that holds the meaning. Do you think "Joint Photographic Experts
Group" is a good name for an image file format? I think not, but it
doesn't matter, because people call it JPEG.

And just like it, what OTP initially meant doesn't matter, because
people refer to the framework as OTP, not as Open Telecom Platform.

On 02/12/2014 11:04 PM, kraythe . wrote:

> I am a newbie to Erlang so pardon if the question comes off as impertinent.
> However, as I read more into OTP and see the power it has, I am more and
> more irked by its name. The Open Telephony Platform seems to be a little
> limited and I wonder if it would put off people trying to adopt Erlang for
> other use cases.
>
> I am wondering wouldn't it be better to call it the Open Technology
> Platform? The same initials can be used, but the understanding would be
> that the platform would be a general purpose library (which it is) useful
> for many endeavors, not just writing a phone switch.
>
> Sure it might seem trivial but any marketing guy will tell you, naming is
> sometimes everything. So am I nuts here?
>
>
> *Robert Simmons Jr. MSc.*
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> erlang-questions
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
>

--
Lo?c Hoguin
http://ninenines.eu

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Time for OTP to be Renamed?

Sina Samavati
In reply to this post by Christopher Meiklejohn-2
Christopher Meiklejohn <christopher.meiklejohn> writes:

> May I propose an alternative? "Open Telecom Platform: An Unexpected
> Journey."

It's a lovely name that can be awesome for articles/books.

--
Sina Samavati
Software engineer

https://github.com/s1n4
https://twitter.com/sinasamavati

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Time for OTP to be Renamed?

Erik Søe Sørensen-3
In reply to this post by Gustav Simonsson-3
One True Paradigm ;-)
(To make it appealing to, er, Erlang enthusiasts.)

Den 12/02/2014 23.09 skrev "Gustav Simonsson" <gustav.simonsson>:
>
> Let's make it more appealing to startups and the agile folks: Organic
Technology Paradigm shift.
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 11:04 PM, kraythe . <kraythe> wrote:
>>
>> I am a newbie to Erlang so pardon if the question comes off as
impertinent. However, as I read more into OTP and see the power it has, I
am more and more irked by its name. The Open Telephony Platform seems to be
a little limited and I wonder if it would put off people trying to adopt
Erlang for other use cases.
>>
>> I am wondering wouldn't it be better to call it the Open Technology
Platform? The same initials can be used, but the understanding would be
that the platform would be a general purpose library (which it is) useful
for many endeavors, not just writing a phone switch.
>>
>> Sure it might seem trivial but any marketing guy will tell you, naming
is sometimes everything. So am I nuts here?

>>
>> Robert Simmons Jr. MSc.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> erlang-questions mailing list
>> erlang-questions
>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> erlang-questions
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
>
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Time for OTP to be Renamed?

Sina Samavati
In reply to this post by Loïc Hoguin-2
I agree with Lo?c.
Also, I think renaming an (almost) old _thing_ is pretty *silly*.

Lo?c Hoguin <essen> writes:

> Historically OTP meant Open Telecom Platform.
>
> Today OTP means OTP. People don't use the name OTP as initials of
> anything. When they say OTP, they refer to a framework for building
> highly available fault tolerant distributed systems.
>
> The same situation exists with many other names. Few can tell you what
> SMTP, IMAP, HTTP, REST, SOAP, HTML, XML, JPEG, PNG and others stand
> for without looking it up and not making a mistake or three. And it
> doesn't matter, the abbreviated name is the one that is used by
> people, and it's the one that holds the meaning. Do you think "Joint
> Photographic Experts Group" is a good name for an image file format? I
> think not, but it doesn't matter, because people call it JPEG.
>
> And just like it, what OTP initially meant doesn't matter, because
> people refer to the framework as OTP, not as Open Telecom Platform.
>
> On 02/12/2014 11:04 PM, kraythe . wrote:
>> I am a newbie to Erlang so pardon if the question comes off as impertinent.
>> However, as I read more into OTP and see the power it has, I am more and
>> more irked by its name. The Open Telephony Platform seems to be a little
>> limited and I wonder if it would put off people trying to adopt Erlang for
>> other use cases.
>>
>> I am wondering wouldn't it be better to call it the Open Technology
>> Platform? The same initials can be used, but the understanding would be
>> that the platform would be a general purpose library (which it is) useful
>> for many endeavors, not just writing a phone switch.
>>
>> Sure it might seem trivial but any marketing guy will tell you, naming is
>> sometimes everything. So am I nuts here?
>>
>>
>> *Robert Simmons Jr. MSc.*

--
Sina Samavati
Software engineer

https://github.com/s1n4
https://twitter.com/sinasamavati

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Time for OTP to be Renamed?

Richard A. O'Keefe
In reply to this post by Loïc Hoguin-2

On 13/02/2014, at 11:56 AM, Lo?c Hoguin wrote:

>
> The same situation exists with many other names. Few can tell you what SMTP, IMAP, HTTP, REST, SOAP, HTML, XML, JPEG, PNG and others stand for without looking it up and not making a mistake or three.

Let's try.

        Simple Mail Transport Protocol
        Internet Message Access Protocol
        HyperText Transfer Protocol
        REpresentational State Transfer
        Simple Object Access Protocol
                to be honest, my first thought was
                Symbolic Optimal Assembly Program,
                but I don't suppose many people use IBM 650s
                these days.
        HyperText Markup Language
        eXtensible Markup Language
        Joint Photographic Experts Group
        Portable Network Graphics

How did I do?  (Really no lookup.)

One reason it's worth knowing what the acronyms stand
for is that they can stand for different things.  It
could be embarrassing to speak critically of XML to
someone and then discover that they think it means
"X-Men Legends".  Or to speak about membership in the
ACM and learn that they're thinking of the Academy of
Country Music.  A discussion of SOAP when one person
is thinking "grotesque abuse of XML" and the other is
thinking "cute assembler for strange old machine" is
not going to be fruitful.

OTP could be One Time Pad, Open Trading Protocol,
Outline Test Plan, or any of an number of other things
relatable to Erlang (and more that aren't).
"We're using OTP to implement OTP using an OTP for
authentication; here's our OTP for it."








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Time for OTP to be Renamed?

Hugo Mills
On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 12:22:10PM +1300, Richard A. O'Keefe wrote:

>
> On 13/02/2014, at 11:56 AM, Lo?c Hoguin wrote:
>
> >
> > The same situation exists with many other names. Few can tell you what SMTP, IMAP, HTTP, REST, SOAP, HTML, XML, JPEG, PNG and others stand for without looking it up and not making a mistake or three.
>
> Let's try.
>
> Simple Mail Transport Protocol
> Internet Message Access Protocol
> HyperText Transfer Protocol
> REpresentational State Transfer
> Simple Object Access Protocol
> to be honest, my first thought was
> Symbolic Optimal Assembly Program,
> but I don't suppose many people use IBM 650s
> these days.

   Officially, it's just "SOAP" these days. It was originally from the
phrase above, but they decided to keep the acronym and drop the
underlying words, because it's not simple and it's not about object
access.

> HyperText Markup Language
> eXtensible Markup Language
> Joint Photographic Experts Group
> Portable Network Graphics
>
> How did I do?  (Really no lookup.)

   Good. 8.5/9 :)

   Hugo.

--
=== Hugo Mills: hugo carfax.org.uk | darksatanic.net | lug.org.uk ===
  PGP key: 65E74AC0 from wwwkeys.eu.pgp.net or http://www.carfax.org.uk
  --- The makers of Steinway pianos would like me to tell you that ---  
                          this is a Bechstein.                          
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Time for OTP to be Renamed?

Pieter Hintjens
In reply to this post by Richard A. O'Keefe
Garrett's video deserves an nomination for... something.

I think we stopped naming languages with acronyms around 1968, and
even then switched to mixed case for the survivors. Only aliens still
use letters for language names (C#, F#, etc.)

It's confusing to laymen what the difference is between Erlang and
OTP. One imagines Ruby and Rails, except it's not that.

I think the simplest plausible solution is to (a) stop using OTP as a
confusing and needless synonym for Erlang, (b) create new layers on
top that can have sexier names.

-Pieter



On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 12:22 AM, Richard A. O'Keefe <ok> wrote:

>
> On 13/02/2014, at 11:56 AM, Lo?c Hoguin wrote:
>
>>
>> The same situation exists with many other names. Few can tell you what SMTP, IMAP, HTTP, REST, SOAP, HTML, XML, JPEG, PNG and others stand for without looking it up and not making a mistake or three.
>
> Let's try.
>
>         Simple Mail Transport Protocol
>         Internet Message Access Protocol
>         HyperText Transfer Protocol
>         REpresentational State Transfer
>         Simple Object Access Protocol
>                 to be honest, my first thought was
>                 Symbolic Optimal Assembly Program,
>                 but I don't suppose many people use IBM 650s
>                 these days.
>         HyperText Markup Language
>         eXtensible Markup Language
>         Joint Photographic Experts Group
>         Portable Network Graphics
>
> How did I do?  (Really no lookup.)
>
> One reason it's worth knowing what the acronyms stand
> for is that they can stand for different things.  It
> could be embarrassing to speak critically of XML to
> someone and then discover that they think it means
> "X-Men Legends".  Or to speak about membership in the
> ACM and learn that they're thinking of the Academy of
> Country Music.  A discussion of SOAP when one person
> is thinking "grotesque abuse of XML" and the other is
> thinking "cute assembler for strange old machine" is
> not going to be fruitful.
>
> OTP could be One Time Pad, Open Trading Protocol,
> Outline Test Plan, or any of an number of other things
> relatable to Erlang (and more that aren't).
> "We're using OTP to implement OTP using an OTP for
> authentication; here's our OTP for it."
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> erlang-questions
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions

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Time for OTP to be Renamed?

Loïc Hoguin-2
On 02/13/2014 09:13 AM, Pieter Hintjens wrote:
> I think we stopped naming languages with acronyms around 1968, and
> even then switched to mixed case for the survivors. Only aliens still
> use letters for language names (C#, F#, etc.)

What about numbers? Go for example.

> It's confusing to laymen what the difference is between Erlang and
> OTP. One imagines Ruby and Rails, except it's not that.
>
> I think the simplest plausible solution is to (a) stop using OTP as a
> confusing and needless synonym for Erlang, (b) create new layers on
> top that can have sexier names.

You are indeed confused. :)

Erlang and OTP are pretty much what Ruby and Rails are, except OTP is a
different kind of framework. You could run Erlang without OTP, or
replacing it, except you don't win anything from doing that, unlike when
you run Ruby on Rails without Ruby and Rails.

--
Lo?c Hoguin
http://ninenines.eu

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Time for OTP to be Renamed?

Anthony Ramine-2
In reply to this post by Pieter Hintjens
Let?s also rename BEAM, because who needs a well-established name? Oh nevermind, the hipster renaming police already handled that one.

Also while at it, let?s rename Erlang!

Or not.

--
Anthony Ramine

Le 13 f?vr. 2014 ? 09:13, Pieter Hintjens <ph> a ?crit :

> I think the simplest plausible solution is to (a) stop using OTP as a
> confusing and needless synonym for Erlang, (b) create new layers on
> top that can have sexier names.


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Time for OTP to be Renamed?

Ivan Uemlianin-2
In reply to this post by Pieter Hintjens
On 13/02/2014 08:13, Pieter Hintjens wrote:
> ... (a) stop using OTP as a
> confusing and needless synonym for Erlang, ...

Is that what OTP is used as?  I thought OTP was a set (or framework, or
platform) of libraries (behaviours, supervision, etc.) that facilitate
the development of highly scalable and reliable applications
(telecoms-grade scalability and reliability you might say).  AFAIK it's
open-source.

Yes, let's rename it to something that more closely reflects what it
really is.  How about the "Open-source Telecoms-grade reliability and
scalability Platform"?

Ivan


--
============================================================
Ivan A. Uemlianin PhD
Llaisdy
Speech Technology Research and Development

                     ivan
                      www.llaisdy.com
                          llaisdy.wordpress.com
               github.com/llaisdy
                      www.linkedin.com/in/ivanuemlianin

                         festina lente
============================================================

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Time for OTP to be Renamed?

Garrett Smith
Sigh. This *is* confusing. It just is.

Lo?c you *cannot* use Erlang without OTP. The VM starts a system,
which consists of applications, which are supervisory trees of
gen_servers.

Supervisors are gen_servers btw.

If you think OTP is optional, look at the first two lines of kernel.erl:

    -module(kernel).
    -behaviour(supervisor).

Historically, OTP libraries came after Erlang the language, of course,
but this so called OTP "framework" is now endemic to Erlang.

What sucks IMO is that OTP is treated as "advanced" by the community
and by book authors. I understand the history of this, but there's a
cost: programmers delay learning core Erlang principles of
*applications* -- i.e. supervisor trees -- because it's not taught up.
It's also incredibly complicated, if you don't use e2.

The irony is that *advanced* Erlang programmers can get away
programming outside the OTP guard rails. Beginners should not even
consider doing this until they understand why OTP works and why they
should deviate.

e2 helps, a lot.

The whole point of e2 is to simplify the correct use of OTP -- letting
programmers *start* with applications, supervisors and gen_servers (in
e2 they're called services and tasks -- simple huh). I know it's
controversial, but it's controversial to those who have been teaching
Erlang while this stuff was being baked. I don't run into new learners
who object to starting with OTP using e2 (though maybe they're just
being polite -- if you're out there and had problems learning with e2,
please drop me a line, or yell at me here).

I agree wholeheartedly with Pieter. It's just Erlang. Keeping the term
OTP is a historic vestige. We're used to it, but it's a dead weight
that adds only confusion.

The Ruby / Rails comparison is not accurate. It's more like Rails 1.0
/ Rails 2.0.

Sadly though, I just don't see "OTP" going away because there's a
trickle of noise from this list :|

I make videos to cope.

On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 2:54 AM, Ivan Uemlianin <ivan> wrote:

> On 13/02/2014 08:13, Pieter Hintjens wrote:
>>
>> ... (a) stop using OTP as a
>> confusing and needless synonym for Erlang, ...
>
>
> Is that what OTP is used as?  I thought OTP was a set (or framework, or
> platform) of libraries (behaviours, supervision, etc.) that facilitate the
> development of highly scalable and reliable applications (telecoms-grade
> scalability and reliability you might say).  AFAIK it's open-source.
>
> Yes, let's rename it to something that more closely reflects what it really
> is.  How about the "Open-source Telecoms-grade reliability and scalability
> Platform"?
>
> Ivan
>
>
> --
> ============================================================
> Ivan A. Uemlianin PhD
> Llaisdy
> Speech Technology Research and Development
>
>                     ivan
>                      www.llaisdy.com
>                          llaisdy.wordpress.com
>               github.com/llaisdy
>                      www.linkedin.com/in/ivanuemlianin
>
>                         festina lente
> ============================================================
>
> _______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> erlang-questions
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions

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Time for OTP to be Renamed?

Ivan Uemlianin-2
On 13/02/2014 09:51, Garrett Smith wrote:
> ...
> What sucks IMO is that OTP is treated as "advanced" by the community
> and by book authors. I understand the history of this, but there's a
> cost: programmers delay learning core Erlang principles of
> *applications* -- i.e. supervisor trees -- because it's not taught up.

This I very much agree with.  I think an Introduction to Erlang book
that started with releases and applications would be a very good idea.

> It's also incredibly complicated, if you don't use e2.

http://e2project.org/


>
> The irony is that *advanced* Erlang programmers can get away
> programming outside the OTP guard rails. Beginners should not even
> consider doing this until they understand why OTP works and why they
> should deviate.
>
> e2 helps, a lot.
>
> The whole point of e2 is to simplify the correct use of OTP -- letting
> programmers *start* with applications, supervisors and gen_servers (in
> e2 they're called services and tasks -- simple huh). I know it's
> controversial, but it's controversial to those who have been teaching
> Erlang while this stuff was being baked. I don't run into new learners
> who object to starting with OTP using e2 (though maybe they're just
> being polite -- if you're out there and had problems learning with e2,
> please drop me a line, or yell at me here).
>
> I agree wholeheartedly with Pieter. It's just Erlang. Keeping the term
> OTP is a historic vestige. We're used to it, but it's a dead weight
> that adds only confusion.
>
> The Ruby / Rails comparison is not accurate. It's more like Rails 1.0
> / Rails 2.0.
>
> Sadly though, I just don't see "OTP" going away because there's a
> trickle of noise from this list :|
>
> I make videos to cope.
>
> On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 2:54 AM, Ivan Uemlianin <ivan> wrote:
>> On 13/02/2014 08:13, Pieter Hintjens wrote:
>>>
>>> ... (a) stop using OTP as a
>>> confusing and needless synonym for Erlang, ...
>>
>>
>> Is that what OTP is used as?  I thought OTP was a set (or framework, or
>> platform) of libraries (behaviours, supervision, etc.) that facilitate the
>> development of highly scalable and reliable applications (telecoms-grade
>> scalability and reliability you might say).  AFAIK it's open-source.
>>
>> Yes, let's rename it to something that more closely reflects what it really
>> is.  How about the "Open-source Telecoms-grade reliability and scalability
>> Platform"?
>>
>> Ivan
>>
>>
>> --
>> ============================================================
>> Ivan A. Uemlianin PhD
>> Llaisdy
>> Speech Technology Research and Development
>>
>>                      ivan
>>                       www.llaisdy.com
>>                           llaisdy.wordpress.com
>>                github.com/llaisdy
>>                       www.linkedin.com/in/ivanuemlianin
>>
>>                          festina lente
>> ============================================================
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> erlang-questions mailing list
>> erlang-questions
>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions

--
============================================================
Ivan A. Uemlianin PhD
Llaisdy
Speech Technology Research and Development

                     ivan
                      www.llaisdy.com
                          llaisdy.wordpress.com
               github.com/llaisdy
                      www.linkedin.com/in/ivanuemlianin

                         festina lente
============================================================

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Time for OTP to be Renamed?

Anthony Ramine-2
In reply to this post by Garrett Smith
Hello,

Replied inline.

Regards,

--
Anthony Ramine

Le 13 f?vr. 2014 ? 10:51, Garrett Smith <g> a ?crit :

> Sigh. This *is* confusing. It just is.
>
> Lo?c you *cannot* use Erlang without OTP. The VM starts a system,
> which consists of applications, which are supervisory trees of
> gen_servers.
>
> Supervisors are gen_servers btw.
>
> If you think OTP is optional, look at the first two lines of kernel.erl:
>
>    -module(kernel).
>    -behaviour(supervisor).
>
> Historically, OTP libraries came after Erlang the language, of course,
> but this so called OTP "framework" is now endemic to Erlang.

You just proved it?s difficult to use Erlang without the stdlib. Erlang is still not OTP.

In fact, the kernel module isn?t even a preloaded module, this means it is not a necessary thing to use Erlang. You could have your own Erlang/E2 if you wanted.

> What sucks IMO is that OTP is treated as "advanced" by the community
> and by book authors. I understand the history of this, but there's a
> cost: programmers delay learning core Erlang principles of
> *applications* -- i.e. supervisor trees -- because it's not taught up.
> It's also incredibly complicated, if you don't use e2.
>
> The irony is that *advanced* Erlang programmers can get away
> programming outside the OTP guard rails. Beginners should not even
> consider doing this until they understand why OTP works and why they
> should deviate.
>
> e2 helps, a lot.

OTP is a set of building blocks for concurrent and distributed systems.

Concurrency and distribution are advanced topics.

Thus OTP is an advanced topic.

> The whole point of e2 is to simplify the correct use of OTP -- letting
> programmers *start* with applications, supervisors and gen_servers (in
> e2 they're called services and tasks -- simple huh). I know it's
> controversial, but it's controversial to those who have been teaching
> Erlang while this stuff was being baked. I don't run into new learners
> who object to starting with OTP using e2 (though maybe they're just
> being polite -- if you're out there and had problems learning with e2,
> please drop me a line, or yell at me here).

e2 is a leaky abstraction which you need to deviate from when you need more complex stuff; let?s not add an infinity of layers on top of OTP.

> I agree wholeheartedly with Pieter. It's just Erlang. Keeping the term
> OTP is a historic vestige. We're used to it, but it's a dead weight
> that adds only confusion.

Erlang itself is dead weight to most in the industry, does that mean we should forgo Erlang altogether?

> The Ruby / Rails comparison is not accurate. It's more like Rails 1.0
> / Rails 2.0.

I have no idea how you would find this accurate.

> Sadly though, I just don't see "OTP" going away because there's a
> trickle of noise from this list :|

How do you know there isn?t a silent majority who just doesn?t care or wouldn?t like the OTP team to spend time trying to rewrite history? That sounds quite a dismissal of the opposing opinion in this debate. In fact,  I have to admit I wouldn?t have replied if not for that sentence.

> I make videos to cope.

I give value to historic facts and terminology to cope.


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