Web Frameworks: which to choose?

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Web Frameworks: which to choose?

Mikhail Sobolev
Hi,

We (a few friends of mine and I) are considering to learn some Erlang.

We would like to create a web base application.  So far we've been
implementing various apps using Django/Python, but we want to try
something completely different.

A quick search showed that there're quite a few frameworks available,
but being beginners in the area, we do not know what we should be
looking at.

Any suggestions? :)

Kind Regards,

--
Misha
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Re: Web Frameworks: which to choose?

G.S.-2
Hey Mikhail,

I'd recommend Nitrogen, it's very solid.

Regards,
-Gene

On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 5:37 AM, Mikhail Sobolev <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

We (a few friends of mine and I) are considering to learn some Erlang.

We would like to create a web base application.  So far we've been
implementing various apps using Django/Python, but we want to try
something completely different.

A quick search showed that there're quite a few frameworks available,
but being beginners in the area, we do not know what we should be
looking at.

Any suggestions? :)

Kind Regards,

--
Misha
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Re: Web Frameworks: which to choose?

ERLANG-3
From an old post:

-----Mensaje original-----
De: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] En
nombre de zabrane Mikael
Enviado el: Jueves, 25 de Noviembre de 2010 09:50 a.m.
Para: Jesper Louis Andersen
CC: Dmitry Demeshchuk; Steve Vinoski; Gilberio Carmenates García;
[hidden email]
Asunto: Re: [erlang-questions] The most better Erlang web server!

For Erlang Web development:
- MochiWeb (very stable, for production): http://code.google.com/p/mochiweb/
- BeepBeep (based on MochiWeb): https://github.com/davebryson/beepbeep
- Nitrogen: http://nitrogenproject.com/
- ElangWeb: http://www.erlang-web.org/
- Misultin (speedy): http://code.google.com/p/misultin/
- Chicago Boss : http://www.chicagoboss.org/
- Cowboy (a newcomer, speedy): https://github.com/extend/cowboy


-- 
Regards
Zabrane

Le 18 avr. 2011 à 14:43, G.S. a écrit :

Hey Mikhail,

I'd recommend Nitrogen, it's very solid.

Regards,
-Gene

On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 5:37 AM, Mikhail Sobolev <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

We (a few friends of mine and I) are considering to learn some Erlang.

We would like to create a web base application.  So far we've been
implementing various apps using Django/Python, but we want to try
something completely different.

A quick search showed that there're quite a few frameworks available,
but being beginners in the area, we do not know what we should be
looking at.

Any suggestions? :)

Kind Regards,

--
Misha
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Re: Web Frameworks: which to choose?

russelldb-2
In reply to this post by Mikhail Sobolev

On 18 Apr 2011, at 13:37, Mikhail Sobolev wrote:

Hi,

We (a few friends of mine and I) are considering to learn some Erlang.

We would like to create a web base application.  So far we've been
implementing various apps using Django/Python, but we want to try
something completely different.

A quick search showed that there're quite a few frameworks available,
but being beginners in the area, we do not know what we should be
looking at.

Any suggestions? :)

Webapp, AJAX, jQuery? Nitrogen http://nitrogenproject.com/
Build it yourself from the ground up? Mochiweb https://github.com/mochi/mochiweb
Rails/django-esque? Chicago Boss http://www.chicagoboss.org/
Don't forget Yaws, too, which is web server that makes it easy to serve dynamic content http://yaws.hyber.org/

I can't really speak for the others (ErlyWeb, Misultin etc) as I haven't used them. Underneath you'll often find Mochiweb. 

I can't recommend Nitrogen highly enough, I found myself productive in it very quickly and the mailing list is excellent. That would be my first port of call for a new web app.

Cheers

Russell


Kind Regards,

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Re: Web Frameworks: which to choose?

Marc Worrell
In reply to this post by ERLANG-3
Missing from the list:


Framework and CMS, uses Django Templates and Nitrogen style events.


- Marc


On Apr 18, 2011, at 14:50 , erlang wrote:

From an old post:

-----Mensaje original-----
De: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] En
nombre de zabrane Mikael
Enviado el: Jueves, 25 de Noviembre de 2010 09:50 a.m.
Para: Jesper Louis Andersen
CC: Dmitry Demeshchuk; Steve Vinoski; Gilberio Carmenates García;
[hidden email]
Asunto: Re: [erlang-questions] The most better Erlang web server!

For Erlang Web development:
- MochiWeb (very stable, for production): http://code.google.com/p/mochiweb/
- BeepBeep (based on MochiWeb): https://github.com/davebryson/beepbeep
- Nitrogen: http://nitrogenproject.com/
- ElangWeb: http://www.erlang-web.org/
- Misultin (speedy): http://code.google.com/p/misultin/
- Chicago Boss : http://www.chicagoboss.org/
- Cowboy (a newcomer, speedy): https://github.com/extend/cowboy


-- 
Regards
Zabrane

Le 18 avr. 2011 à 14:43, G.S. a écrit :

Hey Mikhail,

I'd recommend Nitrogen, it's very solid.

Regards,
-Gene

On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 5:37 AM, Mikhail Sobolev <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

We (a few friends of mine and I) are considering to learn some Erlang.

We would like to create a web base application.  So far we've been
implementing various apps using Django/Python, but we want to try
something completely different.

A quick search showed that there're quite a few frameworks available,
but being beginners in the area, we do not know what we should be
looking at.

Any suggestions? :)

Kind Regards,

--
Misha
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Re: Web Frameworks: which to choose?

Rapsey
And if you don't like any of them, just create your own. Mochiweb and erlydtl do all the heavy lifting anyway. With a bit of glue code you can have something that's really simple and easy to use. It's what I did and it worked out great.


Sergej

On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 2:56 PM, Marc Worrell <[hidden email]> wrote:
Missing from the list:


Framework and CMS, uses Django Templates and Nitrogen style events.


- Marc


On Apr 18, 2011, at 14:50 , erlang wrote:

From an old post:

-----Mensaje original-----
De: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] En
nombre de zabrane Mikael
Enviado el: Jueves, 25 de Noviembre de 2010 09:50 a.m.
Para: Jesper Louis Andersen
CC: Dmitry Demeshchuk; Steve Vinoski; Gilberio Carmenates García;
[hidden email]
Asunto: Re: [erlang-questions] The most better Erlang web server!

For Erlang Web development:
- MochiWeb (very stable, for production): http://code.google.com/p/mochiweb/
- BeepBeep (based on MochiWeb): https://github.com/davebryson/beepbeep
- Nitrogen: http://nitrogenproject.com/
- ElangWeb: http://www.erlang-web.org/
- Misultin (speedy): http://code.google.com/p/misultin/
- Chicago Boss : http://www.chicagoboss.org/
- Cowboy (a newcomer, speedy): https://github.com/extend/cowboy


-- 
Regards
Zabrane

Le 18 avr. 2011 à 14:43, G.S. a écrit :

Hey Mikhail,

I'd recommend Nitrogen, it's very solid.

Regards,
-Gene

On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 5:37 AM, Mikhail Sobolev <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

We (a few friends of mine and I) are considering to learn some Erlang.

We would like to create a web base application.  So far we've been
implementing various apps using Django/Python, but we want to try
something completely different.

A quick search showed that there're quite a few frameworks available,
but being beginners in the area, we do not know what we should be
looking at.

Any suggestions? :)

Kind Regards,

--
Misha
_______________________________________________
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Re: Web Frameworks: which to choose?

Todd Greenwood
In reply to this post by G.S.-2
I've had problems creating pages w/ the latest nitrogen (2.0.4). However
nitrogen 2.0.2 has worked fine for me.

sync the latest nitrogen from github, and then do a

$ git reset --hard v2.0.2

-t

On 4/18/11 5:43 AM, G.S. wrote:

> Hey Mikhail,
>
> I'd recommend Nitrogen, it's very solid.
>
> Regards,
> -Gene
>
> On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 5:37 AM, Mikhail Sobolev
> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     Hi,
>
>     We (a few friends of mine and I) are considering to learn some Erlang.
>
>     We would like to create a web base application.  So far we've been
>     implementing various apps using Django/Python, but we want to try
>     something completely different.
>
>     A quick search showed that there're quite a few frameworks available,
>     but being beginners in the area, we do not know what we should be
>     looking at.
>
>     Any suggestions? :)
>
>     Kind Regards,
>
>     --
>     Misha
>     _______________________________________________
>     erlang-questions mailing list
>     [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
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Re: Web Frameworks: which to choose?

Kenny Stone
Zotonic bills itself as a CMS, which has always seemed pretty different from a web framework to me.

Kenny


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Re: Web Frameworks: which to choose?

Loïc Hoguin
In reply to this post by ERLANG-3
On 04/18/2011 02:50 PM, erlang wrote:
> For Erlang Web development:
> - MochiWeb (very stable, for production): http://code.google.com/p/mochiweb/
> - BeepBeep (based on MochiWeb): https://github.com/davebryson/beepbeep
> - Nitrogen: http://nitrogenproject.com/
> - ElangWeb: http://www.erlang-web.org/
> - Misultin (speedy): http://code.google.com/p/misultin/
> - Chicago Boss : http://www.chicagoboss.org/
> - Cowboy (a newcomer, speedy): https://github.com/extend/cowboy

To be clearer: mochiweb, misultin and cowboy are just servers and
provide no framework (although cowboy will provide a REST interface later).

Others are web frameworks and use an existing HTTP server, most often
mochiweb but sometimes you can choose which underlying server you want
to use. Nitrogen is probably the most used in the Erlang world.

Yaws is part HTTP server part framework, going so far as to provide
embedding erlang in html files a la php, optionally of course.

There's been work on a bridge interface to seamlessly switch HTTP
servers. Not sure which project is most up to date on that.

--
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Re: Web Frameworks: which to choose?

Banibrata Dutta
Here's a well written comparison of some of the frameworks, which provides a good starting point --
http://www.chicagoboss.org/projects/chicagoboss/wiki/Comparison_of_Erlang_Web_Frameworks
However, since Zotonic is in fairly active development, and so is Chicagoboss, and I guess Nitrogen as well, not sure how current the comparisons are.
Best is to go by the above comparison, and then confirm in the respective community list, if some of the desired features are indeed not there in the latest repos.


On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 10:39 PM, Loïc Hoguin <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 04/18/2011 02:50 PM, erlang wrote:
> For Erlang Web development:
> - MochiWeb (very stable, for production): http://code.google.com/p/mochiweb/
> - BeepBeep (based on MochiWeb): https://github.com/davebryson/beepbeep
> - Nitrogen: http://nitrogenproject.com/
> - ElangWeb: http://www.erlang-web.org/
> - Misultin (speedy): http://code.google.com/p/misultin/
> - Chicago Boss : http://www.chicagoboss.org/
> - Cowboy (a newcomer, speedy): https://github.com/extend/cowboy

To be clearer: mochiweb, misultin and cowboy are just servers and
provide no framework (although cowboy will provide a REST interface later).

Others are web frameworks and use an existing HTTP server, most often
mochiweb but sometimes you can choose which underlying server you want
to use. Nitrogen is probably the most used in the Erlang world.

Yaws is part HTTP server part framework, going so far as to provide
embedding erlang in html files a la php, optionally of course.

There's been work on a bridge interface to seamlessly switch HTTP
servers. Not sure which project is most up to date on that.


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Re: Web Frameworks: which to choose?

Marc Worrell
In reply to this post by Kenny Stone
We call Zotonic a CMS because you can have a full fledged with 'only' template work.
We call it a framework because it is easy to extend, overrule and change behaviour, templates etc.

At the start we just wanted a framework, but as almost everybody needs news, agenda, homepage and an editorial interface we ended up with a framework that includes a CMS to handle such things.

You can still skip most of it and just use the framework parts when you don't like the word 'CMS'.

- Marc


On Apr 18, 2011, at 17:59 , Kenny Stone wrote:

Zotonic bills itself as a CMS, which has always seemed pretty different from a web framework to me.

Kenny

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Re: Web Frameworks: which to choose?

Kenny Stone
Why not fold in the enhancements from zotonic the framework into nitrogen and keep zotonic just the CMS part?  I'm not criticizing, just curious :)

Kenny

On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 12:49 PM, Marc Worrell <[hidden email]> wrote:
We call Zotonic a CMS because you can have a full fledged with 'only' template work.
We call it a framework because it is easy to extend, overrule and change behaviour, templates etc.

At the start we just wanted a framework, but as almost everybody needs news, agenda, homepage and an editorial interface we ended up with a framework that includes a CMS to handle such things.

You can still skip most of it and just use the framework parts when you don't like the word 'CMS'.

- Marc


On Apr 18, 2011, at 17:59 , Kenny Stone wrote:

Zotonic bills itself as a CMS, which has always seemed pretty different from a web framework to me.

Kenny

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Re: Web Frameworks: which to choose?

Jilani Khaldi-2
In reply to this post by Loïc Hoguin
> Yaws is part HTTP server part framework, going so far as to provide
> embedding erlang in html files a la php, optionally of course.
In fact I find Yaws very flexible, fast and easy to use as you can use
plain Erlang code inside HTML page. You have everything you need inside
the web server.
--
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---------------------
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Re: Web Frameworks: which to choose?

Jesse Gumm
In reply to this post by Kenny Stone
Here's my vote for Nitrogen.  I've been working with Nitrogen for
close to two years now, and I quite enjoy it.

And Webmachine support was recently added to Nitrogen, so as far as I
know, you can indeed add some REST-type stuff there, but I haven't
ever tinkered with Webmachine so I can't speak at all about it.

I gave a talk a few months ago about Nitrogen.  Here are the slides
(they should work for Nitrogen 2.0.2, but things changed in 2.0.4):
https://docs.google.com/present/view?id=dc37wnrq_7hqpqc6gv

-Jesse

On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 12:53 PM, Kenny Stone <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Why not fold in the enhancements from zotonic the framework into nitrogen
> and keep zotonic just the CMS part?  I'm not criticizing, just curious :)
> Kenny
>
> On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 12:49 PM, Marc Worrell <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> We call Zotonic a CMS because you can have a full fledged with 'only'
>> template work.
>> We call it a framework because it is easy to extend, overrule and change
>> behaviour, templates etc.
>> At the start we just wanted a framework, but as almost everybody needs
>> news, agenda, homepage and an editorial interface we ended up with a
>> framework that includes a CMS to handle such things.
>> You can still skip most of it and just use the framework parts when you
>> don't like the word 'CMS'.
>> - Marc
>>
>> On Apr 18, 2011, at 17:59 , Kenny Stone wrote:
>>
>> Zotonic bills itself as a CMS, which has always seemed pretty different
>> from a web framework to me.
>> Kenny
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> erlang-questions mailing list
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>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>



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Re: Web Frameworks: which to choose?

Marc Worrell

On Apr 18, 2011, at 20:16 , Jesse Gumm wrote:

> Here's my vote for Nitrogen.  I've been working with Nitrogen for
> close to two years now, and I quite enjoy it.
>
> And Webmachine support was recently added to Nitrogen, so as far as I
> know, you can indeed add some REST-type stuff there, but I haven't
> ever tinkered with Webmachine so I can't speak at all about it.

Didn't mention it, but Zotonic is also based on Webmachine.  
Webmachine is the best HTTP protocol handler ever.

> I gave a talk a few months ago about Nitrogen.  Here are the slides
> (they should work for Nitrogen 2.0.2, but things changed in 2.0.4):
> https://docs.google.com/present/view?id=dc37wnrq_7hqpqc6gv
>
> -Jesse
>
> On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 12:53 PM, Kenny Stone <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Why not fold in the enhancements from zotonic the framework into nitrogen
>> and keep zotonic just the CMS part?  I'm not criticizing, just curious :)
>> Kenny

Not doable, Zotonic drifted too far from Nitrogen.

For starters we removed the use of the process dictionary and then added templates (enhanced ErlyDTL), modules, WebSockets, e-mail (gen_smtp), database (epgsql), xmpp pubsub, template selectors, virtual hosts, etc. etc.  And everything HTTP is built on top of Webmachine.

The people working with Zotonic are not only programmers but also frontenders. There are some frontenders building websites without even touching the Erlang code.  See http://timbenniks.nl/ who made multiple Zotonic sites.  An example of a website where programming was involved is http://www.maxclass.com/

In Zotonic all Nitrogen actions, validators, postbacks etc can be specified in the template by the template builder.  There is even a signal/slot module (mod_signal by Maas-Maarten Zeeman) to let web pages send messages to each other without programming.

But... it is a choice.  Do you want to make your templates in Erlang?  Then use Nitrogen.  Do you want a frontender to make your templates?  Then you need something like Zotonic or another framework with a template engine.

- Marc

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Re: Web Frameworks: which to choose?

Mikhail Sobolev
Hi,

Thanks everyone for the suggestions.

It seems that Nitrogen is a bit more popular than others.  So we'll start there.

Thanks again,

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Re: Web Frameworks: which to choose?

Jesse Gumm
In reply to this post by Marc Worrell
Thanks Marc,

I have one quick question about Zotonic.

To what extent is Zotonic kept up to date with respect to Nitrogen?
Do you regularly port new things in, or since Zotonic has so many
other things in it that aren't Nitrogen that it's more of a fork of
Nitrogen as it was in 1.0?

Forgive my ignorance of this.  I've known about Zotonic for a while,
I've just never sat down and tinkered with it beyond looking at some
of the code once or twice.

-Jesse

On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 1:32 PM, Marc Worrell <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Apr 18, 2011, at 20:16 , Jesse Gumm wrote:
>
>> Here's my vote for Nitrogen.  I've been working with Nitrogen for
>> close to two years now, and I quite enjoy it.
>>
>> And Webmachine support was recently added to Nitrogen, so as far as I
>> know, you can indeed add some REST-type stuff there, but I haven't
>> ever tinkered with Webmachine so I can't speak at all about it.
>
> Didn't mention it, but Zotonic is also based on Webmachine.
> Webmachine is the best HTTP protocol handler ever.
>
>> I gave a talk a few months ago about Nitrogen.  Here are the slides
>> (they should work for Nitrogen 2.0.2, but things changed in 2.0.4):
>> https://docs.google.com/present/view?id=dc37wnrq_7hqpqc6gv
>>
>> -Jesse
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 12:53 PM, Kenny Stone <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Why not fold in the enhancements from zotonic the framework into nitrogen
>>> and keep zotonic just the CMS part?  I'm not criticizing, just curious :)
>>> Kenny
>
> Not doable, Zotonic drifted too far from Nitrogen.
>
> For starters we removed the use of the process dictionary and then added templates (enhanced ErlyDTL), modules, WebSockets, e-mail (gen_smtp), database (epgsql), xmpp pubsub, template selectors, virtual hosts, etc. etc.  And everything HTTP is built on top of Webmachine.
>
> The people working with Zotonic are not only programmers but also frontenders. There are some frontenders building websites without even touching the Erlang code.  See http://timbenniks.nl/ who made multiple Zotonic sites.  An example of a website where programming was involved is http://www.maxclass.com/
>
> In Zotonic all Nitrogen actions, validators, postbacks etc can be specified in the template by the template builder.  There is even a signal/slot module (mod_signal by Maas-Maarten Zeeman) to let web pages send messages to each other without programming.
>
> But... it is a choice.  Do you want to make your templates in Erlang?  Then use Nitrogen.  Do you want a frontender to make your templates?  Then you need something like Zotonic or another framework with a template engine.
>
> - Marc
>
>



--
Jesse Gumm
Sigma Star Systems
414.940.4866
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http://www.sigma-star.com
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