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'reply-to' header in this mailing list

Alexander Krasnukhin
Hej,

Why this mailing list doesn't add itself to the 'reply-to' header? I see it isn't uncommon for subscribers to send message to the author directly instead of the list.

I wonder why?

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Alexander


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Re: 'reply-to' header in this mailing list

mazenharake
This has been debated for as long as mailing lists have been used. This is a philosophical question.

To shortcut the discussion which will probably develop now: Use "reply all".

Everyone should learn this. The other way is simply a hack.

See: http://www.metasystema.net/essays/reply-to.html

/M


On 17 May 2011 13:04, Alexander Krasnukhin <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hej,

Why this mailing list doesn't add itself to the 'reply-to' header? I see it isn't uncommon for subscribers to send message to the author directly instead of the list.

I wonder why?

--
Regards,
Alexander


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Re: 'reply-to' header in this mailing list

mazenharake
To clarify. The link is FOR when you suggest, not against. I was sending it as an example of the philosophical discussion people have about it.

On 17 May 2011 13:24, Mazen Harake <[hidden email]> wrote:
This has been debated for as long as mailing lists have been used. This is a philosophical question.

To shortcut the discussion which will probably develop now: Use "reply all".

Everyone should learn this. The other way is simply a hack.

See: http://www.metasystema.net/essays/reply-to.html

/M


On 17 May 2011 13:04, Alexander Krasnukhin <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hej,

Why this mailing list doesn't add itself to the 'reply-to' header? I see it isn't uncommon for subscribers to send message to the author directly instead of the list.

I wonder why?

--
Regards,
Alexander


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Re: 'reply-to' header in this mailing list

Alexander Krasnukhin
In reply to this post by mazenharake
I don't want to discuss this. Just wanted to ask why because it is unusual these days.

On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 1:24 PM, Mazen Harake <[hidden email]> wrote:
This has been debated for as long as mailing lists have been used. This is a philosophical question.

To shortcut the discussion which will probably develop now: Use "reply all".

Everyone should learn this. The other way is simply a hack.

See: http://www.metasystema.net/essays/reply-to.html

/M


On 17 May 2011 13:04, Alexander Krasnukhin <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hej,

Why this mailing list doesn't add itself to the 'reply-to' header? I see it isn't uncommon for subscribers to send message to the author directly instead of the list.

I wonder why?

--
Regards,
Alexander


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Alexander


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Re: 'reply-to' header in this mailing list

mazenharake
http://erlang.2086793.n4.nabble.com/mailing-list-quot-reply-to-quot-td3067987.html

See David Mercer's response.

/M

On 17 May 2011 13:50, Alexander Krasnukhin <[hidden email]> wrote:
I don't want to discuss this. Just wanted to ask why because it is unusual these days.


On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 1:24 PM, Mazen Harake <[hidden email]> wrote:
This has been debated for as long as mailing lists have been used. This is a philosophical question.

To shortcut the discussion which will probably develop now: Use "reply all".

Everyone should learn this. The other way is simply a hack.

See: http://www.metasystema.net/essays/reply-to.html

/M


On 17 May 2011 13:04, Alexander Krasnukhin <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hej,

Why this mailing list doesn't add itself to the 'reply-to' header? I see it isn't uncommon for subscribers to send message to the author directly instead of the list.

I wonder why?

--
Regards,
Alexander


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Alexander



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Re: 'reply-to' header in this mailing list

Alexander Krasnukhin
Yeah, yeah. I've got this. It is some kind of local joke. Don't have anything to ask? Why not just ask why the hell "reply-to" isn't the mailing list address itself?

On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 1:58 PM, Mazen Harake <[hidden email]> wrote:
http://erlang.2086793.n4.nabble.com/mailing-list-quot-reply-to-quot-td3067987.html

See David Mercer's response.

/M


On 17 May 2011 13:50, Alexander Krasnukhin <[hidden email]> wrote:
I don't want to discuss this. Just wanted to ask why because it is unusual these days.


On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 1:24 PM, Mazen Harake <[hidden email]> wrote:
This has been debated for as long as mailing lists have been used. This is a philosophical question.

To shortcut the discussion which will probably develop now: Use "reply all".

Everyone should learn this. The other way is simply a hack.

See: http://www.metasystema.net/essays/reply-to.html

/M


On 17 May 2011 13:04, Alexander Krasnukhin <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hej,

Why this mailing list doesn't add itself to the 'reply-to' header? I see it isn't uncommon for subscribers to send message to the author directly instead of the list.

I wonder why?

--
Regards,
Alexander


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Alexander





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Alexander


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Re: 'reply-to' header in this mailing list

Raimo Niskanen-2
Search the archives. Do not waste bandwidth.

The same bottom line as the last time still applies:
  http://erlang.org/pipermail/erlang-questions/2010-December/055017.html

/ Raimo Niskanen, mailing list maintainer at erlang dot org



On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 02:03:18PM +0200, Alexander Krasnukhin wrote:

> Yeah, yeah. I've got this. It is some kind of local joke. Don't have
> anything to ask? Why not just ask why the hell "reply-to" isn't the mailing
> list address itself?
>
> On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 1:58 PM, Mazen Harake <[hidden email]>wrote:
>
> >
> > http://erlang.2086793.n4.nabble.com/mailing-list-quot-reply-to-quot-td3067987.html
> >
> > See David Mercer's response.
> >
> > /M
> >
> >
> > On 17 May 2011 13:50, Alexander Krasnukhin <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> I don't want to discuss this. Just wanted to ask why because it is unusual
> >> these days.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 1:24 PM, Mazen Harake <[hidden email]>wrote:
> >>
> >>> This has been debated for as long as mailing lists have been used. This
> >>> is a philosophical question.
> >>>
> >>> To shortcut the discussion which will probably develop now: Use "reply
> >>> all".
> >>>
> >>> Everyone should learn this. The other way is simply a hack.
> >>>
> >>> See: http://www.metasystema.net/essays/reply-to.html
> >>>
> >>> /M
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 17 May 2011 13:04, Alexander Krasnukhin <[hidden email]>wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hej,
> >>>>
> >>>> Why this mailing list doesn't add itself to the 'reply-to' header? I see
> >>>> it isn't uncommon for subscribers to send message to the author directly
> >>>> instead of the list.
> >>>>
> >>>> I wonder why?
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Regards,
> >>>> Alexander
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> erlang-questions mailing list
> >>>> [hidden email]
> >>>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Regards,
> >> Alexander
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
> --
> Regards,
> Alexander

> _______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions


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/ Raimo Niskanen, Erlang/OTP, Ericsson AB
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Re: 'reply-to' header in this mailing list

Alexander Krasnukhin
Yes, yes. I've got this. People from telecom will always rely on standards instead of people expectations. Good. Right. Understandable.

On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 4:28 PM, Raimo Niskanen <[hidden email]> wrote:
Search the archives. Do not waste bandwidth.

The same bottom line as the last time still applies:
 http://erlang.org/pipermail/erlang-questions/2010-December/055017.html

/ Raimo Niskanen, mailing list maintainer at erlang dot org



On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 02:03:18PM +0200, Alexander Krasnukhin wrote:
> Yeah, yeah. I've got this. It is some kind of local joke. Don't have
> anything to ask? Why not just ask why the hell "reply-to" isn't the mailing
> list address itself?
>
> On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 1:58 PM, Mazen Harake <[hidden email]>wrote:
>
> >
> > http://erlang.2086793.n4.nabble.com/mailing-list-quot-reply-to-quot-td3067987.html
> >
> > See David Mercer's response.
> >
> > /M
> >
> >
> > On 17 May 2011 13:50, Alexander Krasnukhin <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> I don't want to discuss this. Just wanted to ask why because it is unusual
> >> these days.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 1:24 PM, Mazen Harake <[hidden email]>wrote:
> >>
> >>> This has been debated for as long as mailing lists have been used. This
> >>> is a philosophical question.
> >>>
> >>> To shortcut the discussion which will probably develop now: Use "reply
> >>> all".
> >>>
> >>> Everyone should learn this. The other way is simply a hack.
> >>>
> >>> See: http://www.metasystema.net/essays/reply-to.html
> >>>
> >>> /M
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 17 May 2011 13:04, Alexander Krasnukhin <[hidden email]>wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hej,
> >>>>
> >>>> Why this mailing list doesn't add itself to the 'reply-to' header? I see
> >>>> it isn't uncommon for subscribers to send message to the author directly
> >>>> instead of the list.
> >>>>
> >>>> I wonder why?
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Regards,
> >>>> Alexander
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> erlang-questions mailing list
> >>>> [hidden email]
> >>>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Regards,
> >> Alexander
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
> --
> Regards,
> Alexander

> _______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions


--

/ Raimo Niskanen, Erlang/OTP, Ericsson AB
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Re: 'reply-to' header in this mailing list

Richard O'Keefe

On 18/05/2011, at 3:07 AM, Alexander Krasnukhin wrote:

> Yes, yes. I've got this. People from telecom will always rely on standards instead of people expectations. Good. Right. Understandable.

That sounds a bit sarcastic.
The thing is that the Erlang mailing list behaves *EXACTLY* the way I expect
a mailing list to work.
I expect "Reply All" to reply to everyone on the list.
I expect "Reply" to go just to the author.
I expect it to work the way mailing lists always used to work.

The standard in this case is not arbitrary, but part of a coherent
design to ensure a straightforward user experience.

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What are the "Most valuable libraries?"...and a few other questions

Todd Greenwood
The whole "reply-all" debate has stirred me to ask some festering
questions...

1. In general, what are the most valuable libraries to learn, both
within the Erlang dist and external?

2. Is there a consolidated/curated repository of libraries that is
industry standard? I know the erlware folks have a repo...is that both a
complete and accepted authoritative repo? From reading the list, it
sounds like there's also a fair bit of stuff scattered about in github, too.

3. How does one easily multithread an app? For instance, there's pmap in
clojure and something similar in akka that lets you map a function
across a list, and it allocates threads accordingly...

literally something like: "pmap(myfun, mylist);"

4. Along that note, does anyone have any ideas as to how to tackle the
Typesafe 'getting started tutorial?'

http://typesafe.com/resources/getting-started/tutorials/getting-started-first-scala.html

(Typesafe is the funded version of Jonas Bonér's Akka combined with Scala)

4b. Side note: is anyone concerned about Akka/Typesafe stealing mindshare?

And lastly, the most burning of questions:

5. How does one push an app such that it self instantiates it's
processes across the cluster? I can see how OTP is great at managing an
app on a single node, but how do you say something like: "create one of
these processes on each node in the cluster, and restart 1-for-1 if they
die"... or something similar. I see mention of gproc, but honestly, I
don't see how to use it. Likewise, if nodes are added to the cluster,
how would you ensure that the necessary processes are pushed to the new
node after it joins the cluster?

6. How do you deploy and live code upgrade in real life? I've been
looking at some of the work by the 'Dukes of Erl' ... is erlrc what
folks commononly use?

Dukes of Erl project (Paul Mineiro):
https://code.google.com/p/erlrc/

Paul Mineiro's Erlang factory 2009 presentation:
http://www.erlang-factory.com/conference/SFBayAreaErlangFactory2009/speakers/PaulMineiro

7. Does anyone use dynamic load balancing of demand across a cluster
(e.g. spinning up erlang processes to meet the demand curve?)

8. What's the best way to integrate w/ other code bases. In akka, you'd
use camel as an integration bus. What are the common ways to integrate
with erlang? Is that what ports and nifs are for? Forgive my ignorance,
but I always considered those as simply ways to write code in a
different, perhaps more comfortable language...not as integration
mechanisms.

Also, I've continued to peck away at various newbie tutorials. Any
comments/suggestions/corrections are welcome.

https://github.com/ToddG/experimental/tree/master/erlang/wilderness

-Todd
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Re: What are the "Most valuable libraries?"...and a few other questions

Mike Oxford
On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 5:25 PM, Todd <[hidden email]> wrote:
The whole "reply-all" debate has stirred me to ask some festering questions...

1. In general, what are the most valuable libraries to learn, both within the Erlang dist and external?

 OTP, gproc to start
 

2. Is there a consolidated/curated repository of libraries that is industry standard? I know the erlware folks have a repo...is that both a complete and accepted authoritative repo? From reading the list, it sounds like there's also a fair bit of stuff scattered about in github, too.

OTP is the industry standard
 
3. How does one easily multithread an app? For instance, there's pmap in clojure and something similar in akka that lets you map a function across a list, and it allocates threads accordingly...

You spawn more processes.  Erlang handles the SMP portion for you.  There is some parallelization stuff available for Erlang as well, or roll your own.

4. Along that note, does anyone have any ideas as to how to tackle the Typesafe 'getting started tutorial?'

 
4b. Side note: is anyone concerned about Akka/Typesafe stealing mindshare?

Dif'rnt stroke fer dif'rnt folks.
 
5. How does one push an app such that it self instantiates it's processes across the cluster? I can see how OTP is great at managing an app on a single node, but how do you say something like: "create one of these processes on each node in the cluster, and restart 1-for-1 if they die"... or something similar. I see mention of gproc, but honestly, I don't see how to use it. Likewise, if nodes are added to the cluster, how would you ensure that the necessary processes are pushed to the new node after it joins the cluster?

Use spawn_link/2 

spawn_link(Node, Fun) -> pid()

 
If you have the Pid for your remote supervisor you can just use supervisor:start_link and give it the remote Pid, or Pid ! <msg> it.
 
6. How do you deploy and live code upgrade in real life? I've been looking at some of the work by the 'Dukes of Erl' ... is erlrc what folks commononly use?


No idea, I haven't gotten that far yet.  :)
 
7. Does anyone use dynamic load balancing of demand across a cluster (e.g. spinning up erlang processes to meet the demand curve?)

We do, to some extent.  We start with a pool and if we exceed that we go dynamic.  Might be better to just go dynamic and save the shared-state munging....
 
8. What's the best way to integrate w/ other code bases. In akka, you'd use camel as an integration bus. What are the common ways to integrate with erlang? Is that what ports and nifs are for? Forgive my ignorance, but I always considered those as simply ways to write code in a different, perhaps more comfortable language...not as integration mechanisms.

Ports and NIFs, yes.  Whether the integration is for performance, functionality or preferences it's all the same: something external.

Also, I've continued to peck away at various newbie tutorials. Any comments/suggestions/corrections are welcome.

See #4.

G'luck!

-mox

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Re: What are the "Most valuable libraries?"...and a few other questions

Frédéric Trottier-Hébert
In reply to this post by Todd Greenwood
On 2011-05-17, at 20:25 PM, Todd wrote:

> The whole "reply-all" debate has stirred me to ask some festering questions...
>
> 1. In general, what are the most valuable libraries to learn, both within the Erlang dist and external?
>
In my opinion, learning the OTP behaviour modules brought me a lot in term of Erlang programming efficiency, and also taught me a lot in terms of writing abstractions. They're pretty useful regarding that. Add the sys module to the mix; it's pretty good as far as being able to debug gen_* behaviour goes.

For external libraries, I'd say gproc, ibrowse, proper and meck are pretty neat. The riak_core stuff is also impressive.

> 2. Is there a consolidated/curated repository of libraries that is industry standard? I know the erlware folks have a repo...is that both a complete and accepted authoritative repo? From reading the list, it sounds like there's also a fair bit of stuff scattered about in github, too.
>
Not really. You have erlware, as you mentioned, but I personally tend to use agner (http://erlagner.org/).

> 3. How does one easily multithread an app? For instance, there's pmap in clojure and something similar in akka that lets you map a function across a list, and it allocates threads accordingly...
>
> literally something like: "pmap(myfun, mylist);"

In my own use cases, I tend to write Erlang for multi-user stuff, server-side software. In these cases, parallelism on things like mapping over a list is rather useless. By this, I mean that if you only map over one list at a time, then breaking it in N processes might win you some time (assuming the function you apply takes more time to run than spawning and communicating data), but if you have N lists for N users each having their own process, then the system is already processes a lot of data in parallel, probably more than what could be useful if you had M processes per list on top of the N users -- at this point you get to play with the scheduler and processes might fight for CPU time.

This is pretty complex but my point is that if you're writing server software where concurrency units are already large, but there are many of them, low-level parallelism as in a pmap function isn't the most useful enhancement. Smart application architecture design might play a lot more in the long run.

In any case, if you really want a pmap, there's rpc:pmap/3 (http://erldocs.com/R14B02/kernel/rpc.html?i=0&search=pmap#pmap/4) and conc lists (http://dustin.github.com/2010/03/04/erlang-conc.html, also on agner). Measure and see what fits.
>
> 4. Along that note, does anyone have any ideas as to how to tackle the Typesafe 'getting started tutorial?'
>
> http://typesafe.com/resources/getting-started/tutorials/getting-started-first-scala.html
>
> (Typesafe is the funded version of Jonas Bonér's Akka combined with Scala)

This is a tough one. There are plenty of guides to get started with Erlang. You have 2-3 versions of them in the official documentation, there are screencasts over at pragmatic programmers, I write http://learnyousomeerlang.com and you have plenty of blog posts around the web doing a good, short job of introducing users to the language. The latest one doing that is from IBM (http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/os-erlang1/index.html?ca=drs-)

For the part about getting an executable running fast, things in Erlang are a bit complex. The standard way to get an application running has to do with OTP Applications and OTP Releases; this is complex, requires you to learn the whole framework and can't be explained fast. You could probably do something basic with erl -run and -noshell options, but I'd also like to see one or two tutorials focusing on Escripts as a quick jumpstart option.

>
> 4b. Side note: is anyone concerned about Akka/Typesafe stealing mindshare?

Not really. I don't think many established Erlangers are going to leave for Scala/Akka. I think many Java people who were somewhat interested but hesitating about Erlang might study Scala/Akka first. If they like it, I wouldn't be surprised to see them trying Erlang at some point, given Akka is heavily inspired by its design choices.

The more languages try to borrow Erlang idioms, the better (although I'd like it if they focused more on fault-tolerance)

>
> And lastly, the most burning of questions:
>
> 5. How does one push an app such that it self instantiates it's processes across the cluster? I can see how OTP is great at managing an app on a single node, but how do you say something like: "create one of these processes on each node in the cluster, and restart 1-for-1 if they die"... or something similar. I see mention of gproc, but honestly, I don't see how to use it. Likewise, if nodes are added to the cluster, how would you ensure that the necessary processes are pushed to the new node after it joins the cluster?

You can have many design options. Using OTP applications, you can specify a takeover/failover mechanism, but not something that would be instantly started on all nodes. To do something like that, the simplest thing I can think of is to simply start your application on each node. You could add some kind of 'sync' function to ask each node to synchronises itself with the rest of the cluster (this is what the global module does as far as I know) or try to work some mechanism that does it automatically.

Generally, distributed applications where they all run at the same time and need to share some state is a harder problem than just having independent components distributed across a cluster. Things will be very application specific. Is the state shared or independent? Can one of the nodes disappear without impacting the rest of the application? What do you do in cases of netsplits when you can't know if a node is down or the connection broken? There are many questions like this that will drive your design. You can possibly look at riak_core for some design decisions, then at the global module for an entirely different (and smaller scale) approach.

>
> 6. How do you deploy and live code upgrade in real life? I've been looking at some of the work by the 'Dukes of Erl' ... is erlrc what folks commononly use?
>
> Dukes of Erl project (Paul Mineiro):
> https://code.google.com/p/erlrc/
>
> Paul Mineiro's Erlang factory 2009 presentation:
> http://www.erlang-factory.com/conference/SFBayAreaErlangFactory2009/speakers/PaulMineiro

Releases have mechanisms in place to handle this. The basic idea is that every gen_* behaviour implements callbacks from the sys module. These callbacks allow various operations such as suspending a behaviour (switching it into a 'I only accept sys messages' mode), calling for the code change functions, then resuming it. This generally allows safe code updates, but always remember to test things before deploying them (and test the deploying itself).
>
> 7. Does anyone use dynamic load balancing of demand across a cluster (e.g. spinning up erlang processes to meet the demand curve?)
>
I'll leave this to be answered by people with more production experience than I have, but I generally write my programs so that each concurrent (independent) unit of computation has its own process. By this I mean that in the case of a web server, I'll usually create one process per query rather than one process for the data fetching, then one for the templating, etc. Some things are sequential and should remain that way in the code.

 The VM also does a lot of heavy lifting for me with regards to that approach, distributing processes in ways that makes things reasonably balanced.

> 8. What's the best way to integrate w/ other code bases. In akka, you'd use camel as an integration bus. What are the common ways to integrate with erlang? Is that what ports and nifs are for? Forgive my ignorance, but I always considered those as simply ways to write code in a different, perhaps more comfortable language...not as integration mechanisms.

Ports, Port Drivers, C Nodes and NIFs are all standard ways to communicate with the outside world. There are also interfaces to Java and communication layers to PHP, Ruby, Python, etc. You can also add BERT-RPC as a protocol that can be used with Erlang, among others.

>  
> Also, I've continued to peck away at various newbie tutorials. Any comments/suggestions/corrections are welcome.
>
> https://github.com/ToddG/experimental/tree/master/erlang/wilderness
>
> -Todd
> _______________________________________________
> erlang-questions mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions

Hopefully, this is helpful :)

--
Fred Hébert
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Re: What are the "Most valuable libraries?"...and a few other questions

Jared Morrow
In reply to this post by Todd Greenwood


5. How does one push an app such that it self instantiates it's processes across the cluster? I can see how OTP is great at managing an app on a single node, but how do you say something like: "create one of these processes on each node in the cluster, and restart 1-for-1 if they die"... or something similar. I see mention of gproc, but honestly, I don't see how to use it. Likewise, if nodes are added to the cluster, how would you ensure that the necessary processes are pushed to the new node after it joins the cluster?

6. How do you deploy and live code upgrade in real life? I've been looking at some of the work by the 'Dukes of Erl' ... is erlrc what folks commononly use?

Lots of folks do it different ways.   Two good talks that will aid you in deployment are Dizzy Smith's talk about rebar and Joe Williams talk about deployment and hot code upgrades, both at EF San Fran 2011.

 


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Re: 'reply-to' header in this mailing list

Michael Turner
In reply to this post by Richard O'Keefe
Does anyone have any statistics on this question? That is, what percentage of mailing lists "do it wrong"? It's counterintuitive to me that  a "reply" on this mailing list is only to the individual. "Reply" is "Reply to the list" on every other mailing list I'm currently on, and on almost every mailing list I can remember being on. But perhaps my lifetime mailing list membership doesn't approach statistical significance.

Although it may get me accused of "blindly following the herd," let me assert it anyway: arguments from "intuition" in commonly used software interfaces only work when you have statistically significant user support for them, not some purely formal, rule-based argument for your *personal* intuition. What's "intuitive" to one person may be counterintuitive to many. As pointed out long ago, "intuitive equals familiar":


And, as pointed out even longer ago, "a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds." (Emerson.)

Perhaps to some people, a mailing list is like a noticeboard in a mostly-empty hallway. My mental model of a mailing list corresponds more closely to a conversation in a classroom. When you reply to an open question or comment in such a context, you cannot help but be heard by more than one person; most likely you'll be heard by everyone in the room. You actually have to make a special effort (i.e., lean over and whisper in an ear, or pass a note) to be sure that your reply is private. I think this corresponds pretty closely to the intuition of the average mailing list user. But erlangeurs may be different, I don't know.

-michael turner


On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 8:45 AM, Richard O'Keefe <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 18/05/2011, at 3:07 AM, Alexander Krasnukhin wrote:

> Yes, yes. I've got this. People from telecom will always rely on standards instead of people expectations. Good. Right. Understandable.

That sounds a bit sarcastic.
The thing is that the Erlang mailing list behaves *EXACTLY* the way I expect
a mailing list to work.
I expect "Reply All" to reply to everyone on the list.
I expect "Reply" to go just to the author.
I expect it to work the way mailing lists always used to work.

The standard in this case is not arbitrary, but part of a coherent
design to ensure a straightforward user experience.

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Re: 'reply-to' header in this mailing list

Bengt Kleberg
Greetings,

Another possible take on what the proper behaviour should be, is perhaps
found when thinking about the question:

Which rule minimises the amount of damage if I misunderstand it?

Say that I want to reply to one person only and use Reply-to when the
rule is to send to the whole list. It is a possible misunderstanding and
would be damaging if the email goes out to everybody.

On the other hand, I want to reply to all and use Reply-to when the rule
is to send to the author only. It is a possible misunderstanding and
only one person gets the email. I will notice this when it never reaches
the list. I can then resend it to everybody. More work, but no damage.


bengt

On Wed, 2011-05-18 at 07:35 +0200, Michael Turner wrote:

> Does anyone have any statistics on this question? That is, what
> percentage of mailing lists "do it wrong"? It's counterintuitive to me
> that  a "reply" on this mailing list is only to the individual.
> "Reply" is "Reply to the list" on every other mailing list I'm
> currently on, and on almost every mailing list I can remember being
> on. But perhaps my lifetime mailing list membership doesn't approach
> statistical significance.
>
>
> Although it may get me accused of "blindly following the herd," let me
> assert it anyway: arguments from "intuition" in commonly used software
> interfaces only work when you have statistically significant user
> support for them, not some purely formal, rule-based argument for your
> *personal* intuition. What's "intuitive" to one person may be
> counterintuitive to many. As pointed out long ago, "intuitive equals
> familiar":
>
>
>   http://www.asktog.com/papers/raskinintuit.html
>
>
> And, as pointed out even longer ago, "a foolish consistency is the
> hobgoblin of small minds." (Emerson.)
>
>
> Perhaps to some people, a mailing list is like a noticeboard in a
> mostly-empty hallway. My mental model of a mailing list corresponds
> more closely to a conversation in a classroom. When you reply to an
> open question or comment in such a context, you cannot help but be
> heard by more than one person; most likely you'll be heard by everyone
> in the room. You actually have to make a special effort (i.e., lean
> over and whisper in an ear, or pass a note) to be sure that your reply
> is private. I think this corresponds pretty closely to the intuition
> of the average mailing list user. But erlangeurs may be different, I
> don't know.
>
>
> -michael turner
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 8:45 AM, Richard O'Keefe <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>        
>         On 18/05/2011, at 3:07 AM, Alexander Krasnukhin wrote:
>        
>         > Yes, yes. I've got this. People from telecom will always
>         rely on standards instead of people expectations. Good. Right.
>         Understandable.
>        
>        
>         That sounds a bit sarcastic.
>         The thing is that the Erlang mailing list behaves *EXACTLY*
>         the way I expect
>         a mailing list to work.
>         I expect "Reply All" to reply to everyone on the list.
>         I expect "Reply" to go just to the author.
>         I expect it to work the way mailing lists always used to work.
>        
>         The standard in this case is not arbitrary, but part of a
>         coherent
>         design to ensure a straightforward user experience.
>        
>        
>         _______________________________________________
>         erlang-questions mailing list
>         [hidden email]
>         http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
>        
>
>

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Re: 'reply-to' header in this mailing list

Pierpaolo Bernardi
In reply to this post by Michael Turner
On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 07:35, Michael Turner
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Does anyone have any statistics on this question? That is, what percentage
> of mailing lists "do it wrong"? It's counterintuitive to me that  a "reply"
> on this mailing list is only to the individual. "Reply" is "Reply to the
> list" on every other mailing list I'm currently on, and on almost every
> mailing list I can remember being on. But perhaps my lifetime mailing list
> membership doesn't approach statistical significance.
> Although it may get me accused of "blindly following the herd," let me
> assert it anyway: arguments from "intuition" in commonly used software
> interfaces only work when you have statistically significant user support
> for them, not some purely formal, rule-based argument for your *personal*
> intuition. What's "intuitive" to one person may be counterintuitive to many.

According to your intuition, what should be the difference between
an action called "Reply" and another called "Reply to all"?
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Re: 'reply-to' header in this mailing list

Michael Turner
Pierpalo asks: "According to your intuition, what should be the difference between
an action called "Reply" and another called "Reply to all"?"

My intuitions about what ANY response should be to ANY request for action depend on my personal experience and on the circumstances of the request. And I'm hardly alone in that. In user interface design, this is called "The Principle of Least Astonishment."


On a mailing list, I'm slightly astonished ("dismayed" would be a better word) when I reply to the list (or so I think) and discover later (IF I ever do) that the reply went to an individual instead. Here, I would expect "Reply" and "Reply to all" to do the same thing. That's redundant, you say? Well, so what? Life is redundant. Then you die.

I understand the argument from risk: Yes, every so often, somebody thinks they are replying to an individual when in fact they are replying to the list. I've done this mysefl, and suffered embarrassment.

But risk correlates with reward, as with anything in life, and a mailing list is *always* a balance between individual risks of embarrassment ("Will I seem stupid to some people? Will the answer to my question come to me a second after I hit Send? Was there an embarrassing typo in what I wrote?") and collective reward: everybody gets to see the answers; the only people who lose are those who find the answer--or the inbox clutter--annoying. (Presumably, the signal averages out to be positive for most; and for those for whom it doesn't, unsubscribing is always an option.) 

So, in this case, doing the more expected, less astonishing thing is quite aligned with the spirit of mailing lists, even if it's in violation of the letter of IETF law. Sometimes, the most rational thing to do is not the purely logical thing to do. In those cases, I side with rationality. But look: there's cultural variation. Maybe most people in the Erlang world have different expectations or thresholds of "astonishment". So the most rational thing would probably be to put it to a vote, on the list. After all, the issue's just going to come up again, chewing up yet more of that "bandwidth" that Raimo's so worried about conserving. So why not just find out what most people want and do that?

-michael turner



On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 4:38 PM, Pierpaolo Bernardi <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 07:35, Michael Turner
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Does anyone have any statistics on this question? That is, what percentage
> of mailing lists "do it wrong"? It's counterintuitive to me that  a "reply"
> on this mailing list is only to the individual. "Reply" is "Reply to the
> list" on every other mailing list I'm currently on, and on almost every
> mailing list I can remember being on. But perhaps my lifetime mailing list
> membership doesn't approach statistical significance.
> Although it may get me accused of "blindly following the herd," let me
> assert it anyway: arguments from "intuition" in commonly used software
> interfaces only work when you have statistically significant user support
> for them, not some purely formal, rule-based argument for your *personal*
> intuition. What's "intuitive" to one person may be counterintuitive to many.

According to your intuition, what should be the difference between
an action called "Reply" and another called "Reply to all"?


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Re: 'reply-to' header in this mailing list

Ladislav Lenart
In reply to this post by Pierpaolo Bernardi
Hello.

On 18.5.2011 09:38, Pierpaolo Bernardi wrote:

> On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 07:35, Michael Turner
> <[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> Does anyone have any statistics on this question? That is, what percentage
>> of mailing lists "do it wrong"? It's counterintuitive to me that  a "reply"
>> on this mailing list is only to the individual. "Reply" is "Reply to the
>> list" on every other mailing list I'm currently on, and on almost every
>> mailing list I can remember being on. But perhaps my lifetime mailing list
>> membership doesn't approach statistical significance.
>> Although it may get me accused of "blindly following the herd," let me
>> assert it anyway: arguments from "intuition" in commonly used software
>> interfaces only work when you have statistically significant user support
>> for them, not some purely formal, rule-based argument for your *personal*
>> intuition. What's "intuitive" to one person may be counterintuitive to many.
>
> According to your intuition, what should be the difference between
> an action called "Reply" and another called "Reply to all"?

But this does not take into account that most users of this mailing
list are already familiar with the way other mailing lists work. They
already know (perhaps by trial and error from a long ago) that "Reply"
replies to all the list members. And in this situation this mailing
list is the one that breaks their "intuition" (habit, familiarity).

Your question works only for a first time mailing list user with
no previous exposure to any mailing list. In such a situation the
labels "Reply" and "Reply to all" will be all the information she
has to decide.


Ladislav Lenart

PS: I am not biased to any side on this one.

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Re: 'reply-to' header in this mailing list

Pierpaolo Bernardi
In reply to this post by Pierpaolo Bernardi
On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 10:28, Alex Shneyderman <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> According to your intuition, what should be the difference between
>> an action called "Reply" and another called "Reply to all"?
>
> In the case of this list (or any mailing list) I would expect reply to
> go to the list
> because I am aware of the fact that the discussion is to be conducted on
> that list. If I want to make sure that the email goes to the original author I
> will take extra care/effort to send the reply to that one person.
>
> And it is not just his intuition - my intuition tells me the same
> thing as his :-)

OK. That would be my intuition, too, if there was only one action
available for replying to messages. But in every modern mail client
there are two possibilities, usually labeled something like "reply"
and "reply to all", so my question still stands unanswered.

The people who complain about the correct behaviour could easily
obtain their desired behaviour if they just *don't* use the "reply"
command (Never. Not only for messages coming from properly
configured mailing lists), and *always* use "reply to all" (Always.
Not only for for messages coming for properly configured mailing lists).

I would like to understand *why* you don't  judge this very simple
solution to your problem as adeguate. Really. Mine is not a
rethorical question.

P.
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Re: 'reply-to' header in this mailing list

Ivan Uemlianin
In reply to this post by Ladislav Lenart
Thunderbird has a "reply list" option in the GUI, so this issue must
have been sufficiently annoying to the hackers at the Mozilla Foundation.

Ivan


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